[jitsi-users] spreading the word - another blog post on Jitsi


#1

Given the mounting evidence that Skype - and now Microsoft - are
playing the "legal intercept" game, as well as the evidence that
private companies target Skype with endpoint interception malware, I
hope that more and more people will be searching online for the
keywords "Skype alternative".

I therefore got together a blog post titled "A Skype alternative worth
its salt: Jitsi", with a very high-level coverage of the "what is the
problem with existing mainstream chat software" and the "what does
Jitsi buy you in terms of privacy" questions.

The post can be improved in many ways and I would appreciate your
suggestions to achieve that. Please remember this is not meant to be a
technical HOWTO - it's just something to show people that Jitsi is out
there, it has an amazing list of features and is "the" client to use
if you want to protect your privacy.

https://apapadop.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/a-skype-alternative-worth-its-salt-jitsi/

Cheers

Alex


#2

Sorry guys,

I really like Jitsi and I really don't like Skype for several reasons, but as long the developers will not change the handling of Jitsi, it's not an alternative for Skype.

I really would like if my friends tp move to Jitsi too and most of them have tried it. But it's always the same, they don't like it because 'it's too complicated' ...

Ok, most of them are on Windows or MacOS. They need something they can install with a few mouseclicks and then add username and password and that's it.

I don't know how complicated it is, but something like 'Jitsi Light' would be an alternative to skype. May be it's possible to create different frontends?

Best Regards

Guenther

···

On 07/05/2012 05:14 PM, ix4svs@gmail.com wrote:

Given the mounting evidence that Skype - and now Microsoft - are
playing the "legal intercept" game, as well as the evidence that
private companies target Skype with endpoint interception malware, I
hope that more and more people will be searching online for the
keywords "Skype alternative".


#3

Sorry guys,

I really like Jitsi and I really don't like Skype for several reasons, but
as long the developers will not change the handling of Jitsi, it's not an
alternative for Skype.
I really would like if my friends tp move to Jitsi too and most of them
have tried it. But it's always the same, they don't like it because 'it's
too complicated' ...

What the hell is complicated? I will compare for you:
Skype: 1. Get an account. Register with Realname, email, skypename,
password, dont allow spam.
2. Install skype
3. Login
4. Add friends directly or with the search to find one in 20 mio skype users
5. Call them

Jitsi: 1. Get an account. Simplest: iptel.org. Register with Realname,
email, nick, password
2. Install jitsi
3. its a multiprotocoll client, so you have to chose for what kind of
account you have access data. Luckily iptel is preconfigured.
4. Login
5. Add friends
6. Call them

So where is the complicated part? It looks different and that's why people
don't like it. It is a new software for the stuff Skype can do and that's
why they do not want to install an other one. That are excuses i could
follow but plain "its to complicated" are not helpful for anyone.

Get your friends to name the "complicated" part.

Best Regards

Guenther

Regards
Carsten


#4

Microsoft & Apple provide walled, closed-silo products, and this is exactly
what an open-source project like Jitsi helps you avoid.

Bridging multiple protocols from many services simultaneously is inherently
a more complicated problem than what Skype has, from a user-interface point
of view.

Service providers can do automatic provisioning with Jitsi; this is a great
feature to make the software easier for end-users.

If you can pinpoint how other softphones do a better job, let us start a
conversation.

···

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Guenther Boelter <gboelter@gmail.com>wrote:

On 07/05/2012 05:14 PM, ix4svs@gmail.com wrote:

Given the mounting evidence that Skype - and now Microsoft - are
playing the "legal intercept" game, as well as the evidence that
private companies target Skype with endpoint interception malware, I
hope that more and more people will be searching online for the
keywords "Skype alternative".

Sorry guys,

I really like Jitsi and I really don't like Skype for several reasons, but
as long the developers will not change the handling of Jitsi, it's not an
alternative for Skype.

I really would like if my friends tp move to Jitsi too and most of them
have tried it. But it's always the same, they don't like it because 'it's
too complicated' ...

Ok, most of them are on Windows or MacOS. They need something they can
install with a few mouseclicks and then add username and password and
that's it.

I don't know how complicated it is, but something like 'Jitsi Light' would
be an alternative to skype. May be it's possible to create different
frontends?

Best Regards

Guenther

--
Ryan Mitchell <rjm@tcl.net>
Telecom Logic, LLC


#5

Guenther,

I agree with you.

I love Jitsi and use/support it out of principle. But its hard for many of
my users that believe in freedom of information and privacy (
http://www.internetdeclaration.org/freedom)

We need to simplify the interface and improve user documentation. I am
attaching a doc which I give to out to my userbase. Its rough, and I am
still working through it to improve its accuracy, and make it simpler and
easier. I would welcome any help to improve it.

What we really need to do is work towards simplifying the interface. Make
it more intuitive, cleaner, and easier for users to move from Skype, Gmail
chat or whatever to Jitsi. Especially OTR secure chat and fingerprint
exchange. Skinning needs work.

Regards,
Raj

JitsiChatGuide_120627.docx (614 KB)

···

On 5 July 2012 10:53, Guenther Boelter <gboelter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 07/05/2012 05:14 PM, ix4svs@gmail.com wrote:

Given the mounting evidence that Skype - and now Microsoft - are
playing the "legal intercept" game, as well as the evidence that
private companies target Skype with endpoint interception malware, I
hope that more and more people will be searching online for the
keywords "Skype alternative".

Sorry guys,

I really like Jitsi and I really don't like Skype for several reasons, but
as long the developers will not change the handling of Jitsi, it's not an
alternative for Skype.

I really would like if my friends tp move to Jitsi too and most of them
have tried it. But it's always the same, they don't like it because 'it's
too complicated' ...

Ok, most of them are on Windows or MacOS. They need something they can
install with a few mouseclicks and then add username and password and
that's it.

I don't know how complicated it is, but something like 'Jitsi Light' would
be an alternative to skype. May be it's possible to create different
frontends?

Best Regards

Guenther


#6

Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are having problems with Jitsi.

Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

"Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen ist. Also, das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

"I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable, but at the moment I'm too busy for that.

Guenther


#7

I've also had difficulties convincing people to stick with jitsi BUT let's not paint it all black, some people did made the switch (or at least use both skype and jitsi) and I'm very happy with this.
I've written a tutorial to explain how to replace skype with SIP and eventually get people who are interested to understand and use it. I'm pretty happy with the results, most people could get it running without requesting my help. The link is here http://idilix.net/foss-alternative-skype-replacement. It's sad though that many people don't want (or don't have time) to read a tutorial in order to quit using skype... one of the main reasons why people resist to jitsi is because skype does the job for them and they are not willing to do a lot of effort to switch to something else.
Now if I may, let me point out the difficulties people have faced and what made (unfortunately) most people give up and go back to skype. Most of these points are addressed in the tutorial I have written and I know there is a lot already done in jitsi to ease the pain.

1- People do not know that they need a SIP address and expect registration to be built into the software (they start to get impatient, some stop using it right there, they don't see right away the relationship between jitsi and the sip provider). I think a step by step (KISS) wizard or a line of explanation could be helpful.

2- The fact that free, computer to computer calls, and paid, computer to phone calls need two different accounts confuse the hell out of new users. Having to chose between them is something they are not used to. Isn't there a way to detect if the person is calling a phone or a sip and automatically chose the right account?

3- The format of the sip addresses (username @ provider or +country-code-area-code-phone-number@ registrar. etc...) is not human-friendly, users do not want to see that on a daily basis. They just want to click on a name, avatar or type a phone number. Jitsi already handles this quite well but I still get complaints.

4- One cannot search users by their name in Jitsi, it's necessary to know beforehand the sip address of your contacts to add and call them. You cannot know if a user has a sip address otherwise than asking the person directly and this slows down adoption of the software a great deal. I know this is hard to do, probably impossible since there are numerous protocols and sip providers but jitsi could eventually host an opt-in white pages of jitsi users (?).

5- No offline text messaging out of the box => errors disappoint users. (http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.voip.sip-communicator.devel/12677)

6- Some (minor) glitches with echo cancellation, video quality and interface behaviour make people think it's not reliable... (oh boy)

That's all I can think of right now. In any case CONGRATULATIONS to all Jitsi developers for the great work and a huge THANK YOU for that amazing software. Jitsi is on my top 5 most beloved software today.

Feel free to use my tutorial if you wish, it's under creative commons or to ask me more details or whatever I can do to help, I will.

Cheers
William

···

On 07/05/2012 09:58 AM, Emil Ivov wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends' issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is, indeed, not particularly constructive.

--sent from my mobile

On Jul 5, 2012 2:36 PM, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com > <mailto:gboelter@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are
    having problems with Jitsi.

    Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

    "Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
    un�bersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen
    ist. Also, das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

    "I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing
    software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

    And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

    I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable,
    but at the moment I'm too busy for that.

    Guenther


#8

I personally see not much difference between Skype, Jitsi & Co in terms
of usage - however Jitsi is the only opensource solution with secure
end-to-end encryption of text-audio-video.

I guess any average user is able to download Jitsi and install it...

...followed by registration of an Gmail account...(as example for XMPP)

...thats it, everything is preconfigured and works mainly out of the box...

the great challenge to motivate skype-users to switch to Jitsi is not
the "confusing software" but to change habits...

···

On 7/5/12 2:35 PM, Guenther Boelter wrote:

Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are having
problems with Jitsi.

Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

"Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen ist.
Also, das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

"I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing
software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable, but
at the moment I'm too busy for that.

Guenther


#9

Hi Emil,

First of all, my great Thanks! Jitsi is very important in enabling greater
freedom of information to flow and protection of privacy. Especially in
human rights activities. Jitsi makes a big difference in allowing many
people to communicate safely and relay news out with less fear of
repression and more peace of mind!

I would be happy to consolidate the list of suggestions and forward. A lot
of the users I have dealt with are simple computer users, writers,
journalists, social workers in the field etc. I'd say a lot has to do with
skinning and simple user interface behavior.

May I present a list to this forum?

Regards,
Raj

···

On 5 July 2012 13:58, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends'
issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to
achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they
encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is,
indeed, not particularly constructive.

--sent from my mobile
On Jul 5, 2012 2:36 PM, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are having
problems with Jitsi.

Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

"Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen ist. Also,
das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

"I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing
software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable, but at
the moment I'm too busy for that.

Guenther


#10

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends'
issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to
achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they
encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is,
indeed, not particularly constructive.

--sent from my mobile

···

On Jul 5, 2012 2:36 PM, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are having
problems with Jitsi.

Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

"Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen ist. Also,
das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

"I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing software
I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable, but at
the moment I'm too busy for that.

Guenther


#11

I'm getting similar hot-headed responses to Jitsi evangelising only
when I haven't prepared the ground. What people need to understand is
that Jitsi can not compete on user-friendliness or integration with
native software of multi-million companies who have teams working on
the stuff. Facebook chat will always integrate better with Facebook.

But this is only relevant if the value of privacy is zero.

If you "forget" (or don't care) about the privacy that Jitsi gives
you, then yes, by all means use native clients - they're mostly
hassle-free, better integrated, more intuitive etc. But let us not
compare apples with oranges here. People asking for all the
convenience of a native chat client (that is designed to make money by
selling your data) *for free* in a honest piece of software that does
not sell their data for profit, are simply asking for too much.

Privacy has value. You have to pay for that value somehow.

Having said that, suggestions and improvements are always welcome!

Cheers

Alex

···

On 5 July 2012 13:35, Guenther Boelter <gboelter@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are having
problems with Jitsi.

Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

"Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen ist. Also,
das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

"I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing software I
have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.


#12

IMHO to use jabber/xmpp for switching away from skype is much easier than
to use SIP protocol:

if you use Gmail your contacts are imported automatically into Jitsi and
you can make phonecalls (jitsi to landline/mobile) if you purchased the
credit before online for "GTalk" (so very similar with skype), everything
is preconfigured.

SIP so far does not support OTR encryption of chats, so XMPP is clearly
better here.

from privacy point of view Google is a nightmare but the whole content of
communication is secured (OTR, zRTP), this is essential and so far unique
by using Jitsi.

Jitsi improves day by day - and it will make its way...

···

2012/7/5 William Ranvaud <william@ranvaud.com>

I've also had difficulties convincing people to stick with jitsi BUT let's
not paint it all black, some people did made the switch (or at least use
both skype and jitsi) and I'm very happy with this.
I've written a tutorial to explain how to replace skype with SIP and
eventually get people who are interested to understand and use it. I'm
pretty happy with the results, most people could get it running without
requesting my help. The link is here
http://idilix.net/foss-alternative-skype-replacement. It's sad though
that many people don't want (or don't have time) to read a tutorial in
order to quit using skype... one of the main reasons why people resist to
jitsi is because skype does the job for them and they are not willing to do
a lot of effort to switch to something else.
Now if I may, let me point out the difficulties people have faced and what
made (unfortunately) most people give up and go back to skype. Most of
these points are addressed in the tutorial I have written and I know there
is a lot already done in jitsi to ease the pain.

1- People do not know that they need a SIP address and expect registration
to be built into the software (they start to get impatient, some stop using
it right there, they don't see right away the relationship between jitsi
and the sip provider). I think a step by step (KISS) wizard or a line of
explanation could be helpful.

2- The fact that free, computer to computer calls, and paid, computer to
phone calls need two different accounts confuse the hell out of new users.
Having to chose between them is something they are not used to. Isn't there
a way to detect if the person is calling a phone or a sip and automatically
chose the right account?

3- The format of the sip addresses (username @ provider or
+country-code-area-code-phone-number@ registrar. etc...) is not
human-friendly, users do not want to see that on a daily basis. They just
want to click on a name, avatar or type a phone number. Jitsi already
handles this quite well but I still get complaints.

4- One cannot search users by their name in Jitsi, it's necessary to know
beforehand the sip address of your contacts to add and call them. You
cannot know if a user has a sip address otherwise than asking the person
directly and this slows down adoption of the software a great deal. I know
this is hard to do, probably impossible since there are numerous protocols
and sip providers but jitsi could eventually host an opt-in white pages of
jitsi users (?).

5- No offline text messaging out of the box => errors disappoint users. (
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.voip.sip-communicator.devel/12677)

6- Some (minor) glitches with echo cancellation, video quality and
interface behaviour make people think it's not reliable... (oh boy)

That's all I can think of right now. In any case CONGRATULATIONS to all
Jitsi developers for the great work and a huge THANK YOU for that amazing
software. Jitsi is on my top 5 most beloved software today.

Feel free to use my tutorial if you wish, it's under creative commons or
to ask me more details or whatever I can do to help, I will.

Cheers
William

On 07/05/2012 09:58 AM, Emil Ivov wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends'
issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to
achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they
encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is,
indeed, not particularly constructive.

--sent from my mobile
On Jul 5, 2012 2:36 PM, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are having
problems with Jitsi.

Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

"Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen ist. Also,
das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

"I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing
software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable, but at
the moment I'm too busy for that.

Guenther


#13

Hey William,

Adding to what Mr Smith said,

I've also had difficulties convincing people to stick with jitsi BUT
let's not paint it all black, some people did made the switch (or at
least use both skype and jitsi) and I'm very happy with this.
I've written a tutorial to explain how to replace skype with SIP and
eventually get people who are interested to understand and use it. I'm
pretty happy with the results, most people could get it running without
requesting my help. The link is here
http://idilix.net/foss-alternative-skype-replacement.

Thank you for pointing this out!

It's sad though
that many people don't want (or don't have time) to read a tutorial in
order to quit using skype... one of the main reasons why people resist
to jitsi is because skype does the job for them and they are not willing
to do a lot of effort to switch to something else.
Now if I may, let me point out the difficulties people have faced and
what made (unfortunately) most people give up and go back to skype. Most
of these points are addressed in the tutorial I have written and I know
there is a lot already done in jitsi to ease the pain.

1- People do not know that they need a SIP address and expect
registration to be built into the software (they start to get impatient,
some stop using it right there, they don't see right away the
relationship between jitsi and the sip provider).

We do have built-in registration for ippi.fr (SIP) and jit.si or other
XMPP services that would allow it. Of course there's no single
registration service because Jitsi is only a client and there's no
single service behind it. As others already mentioned, this freedom
comes with certain complexities.

Providers are free to adopt Jitsi and offer it as a default client to
their service, which would remove a lot of the complexity. We have made
sure that such integration would be as painless as possible and we also
offer professional services (as part of BlueJimp) to provide help to
those who need it.

I think a step by step
(KISS) wizard or a line of explanation could be helpful.

2- The fact that free, computer to computer calls, and paid, computer to
phone calls need two different accounts confuse the hell out of new
users.

As Mr. Smith pointed: this is not necessarily the case. Google accounts
also allow for calling PSTN numbers (provided you have the credit) and
many SIP services would allow you to do IM and presence, even if it's
not as smooth as XMPP.

Having to chose between them is something they are not used to.
Isn't there a way to detect if the person is calling a phone or a sip
and automatically chose the right account?

If you only use Jitsi with one account, then you won't be asked to
specify an account when making calls. If you have more than one and they
all have telephony features - then, no, there's no way for Jitsi to know
what would be the best route.

3- The format of the sip addresses (username @ provider or
+country-code-area-code-phone-number@ registrar. etc...) is not
human-friendly, users do not want to see that on a daily basis.

Well, something@example.com is a very common ID that users see on a
daily basis for e-mail and popular services such Apple's IDs, Google
accounts, etc.

I don't see why it would be considered non-human-friendly.

Still we have no requirements for users to enter the @servername part.
You could add contacts or calls without specifying it.

They
just want to click on a name, avatar or type a phone number.

They can certainly do this with Jitsi!

Jitsi
already handles this quite well but I still get complaints.

Could you please be more specific?

4- One cannot search users by their name in Jitsi, it's necessary to
know beforehand the sip address of your contacts to add and call them.

Well once again, this is because there's no unique service behind Jitsi.
We do have support for LDAP so if you know of an LDAP server associated
with a particular service, then that would do the job.

Of course that's not particularly user-friendly but that's where
provisioning comes very handy, so providers can make sure they do this
transparently to the end-user.

You cannot know if a user has a sip address otherwise than asking the
person directly and this slows down adoption of the software a great
deal. I know this is hard to do, probably impossible since there are
numerous protocols and sip providers but jitsi could eventually host an
opt-in white pages of jitsi users (?).

This is quite unlikely. Jitsi is a client and this is a provider
responsibility. Maybe however, providers would end up supporting
standardized search mechanisms.

5- No offline text messaging out of the box => errors disappoint users.
(http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.voip.sip-communicator.devel/12677)

Offline messages are very commonly supported on XMPP servers. This is
indeed less common for SIP, but there's really nothing we can do about it.

6- Some (minor) glitches with echo cancellation, video quality and
interface behaviour make people think it's not reliable... (oh boy)

We are doing our best to fix those as we find them. We actually have an
complete re-skin coming up in the following week or two :).

So all in all, I do understand most of your concerns but they are not
all Jitsi's problems to fix. Providers also have a significant role to
play here :).

That's all I can think of right now. In any case CONGRATULATIONS to all
Jitsi developers for the great work and a huge THANK YOU for that
amazing software. Jitsi is on my top 5 most beloved software today.

Thank you very much for your kind words! We really appreciate it!

Cheers,
Emil

···

On 05.07.12 17:57, William Ranvaud wrote:

Feel free to use my tutorial if you wish, it's under creative commons or
to ask me more details or whatever I can do to help, I will.

Cheers
William

On 07/05/2012 09:58 AM, Emil Ivov wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends'
issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to
achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they
encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is,
indeed, not particularly constructive.

--sent from my mobile

On Jul 5, 2012 2:36 PM, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com >> <mailto:gboelter@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are
    having problems with Jitsi.

    Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

    "Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
    unübersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen
    ist. Also, das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

    "I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing
    software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

    And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

    I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable,
    but at the moment I'm too busy for that.

    Guenther

--
Emil Ivov, Ph.D. 67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31


#14

Thank you both for your replies,

The "freedom comes with complexity" part is definitely true in this case and worth taking the time to explain to users.

The complaints I get are mainly due to the complexity of not having a unique service behind it (the way skype taught them to think). I understand this is where I come in to explain that freedom matters and financially, choice is good too! I just want to stress that many people come from a skype background and this must be considered for UXD. By the way I'm glad to know new stuff is coming soon.

About Google services, I've looked at it when I was doing my research and as Mr. Smith said, it is not the ideal solution regarding privacy. On top of it google voice was available only in the US at the time, apparently now they have expanded to other counties too.

I'll definitely look into XMPP more closely and consider it instead of SIP. I did not know it can handle many things better than SIP.

Changing subject, Ekiga has a deal with diamondcard so that part of the revenue of landline credit are going back to Ekiga. Is there anything like that financing Jitsi? Is there any way users can donate to the project directly? I'd definitely donate but didn't find it in the site.

Thanks again
Cheers
William

···

On 07/05/2012 02:46 PM, Emil Ivov wrote:

Hey William,

Adding to what Mr Smith said,

On 05.07.12 17:57, William Ranvaud wrote:

I've also had difficulties convincing people to stick with jitsi BUT
let's not paint it all black, some people did made the switch (or at
least use both skype and jitsi) and I'm very happy with this.
I've written a tutorial to explain how to replace skype with SIP and
eventually get people who are interested to understand and use it. I'm
pretty happy with the results, most people could get it running without
requesting my help. The link is here
http://idilix.net/foss-alternative-skype-replacement.

Thank you for pointing this out!

It's sad though
that many people don't want (or don't have time) to read a tutorial in
order to quit using skype... one of the main reasons why people resist
to jitsi is because skype does the job for them and they are not willing
to do a lot of effort to switch to something else.
Now if I may, let me point out the difficulties people have faced and
what made (unfortunately) most people give up and go back to skype. Most
of these points are addressed in the tutorial I have written and I know
there is a lot already done in jitsi to ease the pain.

1- People do not know that they need a SIP address and expect
registration to be built into the software (they start to get impatient,
some stop using it right there, they don't see right away the
relationship between jitsi and the sip provider).

We do have built-in registration for ippi.fr (SIP) and jit.si or other
XMPP services that would allow it. Of course there's no single
registration service because Jitsi is only a client and there's no
single service behind it. As others already mentioned, this freedom
comes with certain complexities.

Providers are free to adopt Jitsi and offer it as a default client to
their service, which would remove a lot of the complexity. We have made
sure that such integration would be as painless as possible and we also
offer professional services (as part of BlueJimp) to provide help to
those who need it.

I think a step by step
(KISS) wizard or a line of explanation could be helpful.

2- The fact that free, computer to computer calls, and paid, computer to
phone calls need two different accounts confuse the hell out of new
users.

As Mr. Smith pointed: this is not necessarily the case. Google accounts
also allow for calling PSTN numbers (provided you have the credit) and
many SIP services would allow you to do IM and presence, even if it's
not as smooth as XMPP.

Having to chose between them is something they are not used to.
Isn't there a way to detect if the person is calling a phone or a sip
and automatically chose the right account?

If you only use Jitsi with one account, then you won't be asked to
specify an account when making calls. If you have more than one and they
all have telephony features - then, no, there's no way for Jitsi to know
what would be the best route.

3- The format of the sip addresses (username @ provider or
+country-code-area-code-phone-number@ registrar. etc...) is not
human-friendly, users do not want to see that on a daily basis.

Well, something@example.com is a very common ID that users see on a
daily basis for e-mail and popular services such Apple's IDs, Google
accounts, etc.

I don't see why it would be considered non-human-friendly.

Still we have no requirements for users to enter the @servername part.
You could add contacts or calls without specifying it.

They
just want to click on a name, avatar or type a phone number.

They can certainly do this with Jitsi!

Jitsi
already handles this quite well but I still get complaints.

Could you please be more specific?

4- One cannot search users by their name in Jitsi, it's necessary to
know beforehand the sip address of your contacts to add and call them.

Well once again, this is because there's no unique service behind Jitsi.
We do have support for LDAP so if you know of an LDAP server associated
with a particular service, then that would do the job.

Of course that's not particularly user-friendly but that's where
provisioning comes very handy, so providers can make sure they do this
transparently to the end-user.

You cannot know if a user has a sip address otherwise than asking the
person directly and this slows down adoption of the software a great
deal. I know this is hard to do, probably impossible since there are
numerous protocols and sip providers but jitsi could eventually host an
opt-in white pages of jitsi users (?).

This is quite unlikely. Jitsi is a client and this is a provider
responsibility. Maybe however, providers would end up supporting
standardized search mechanisms.

5- No offline text messaging out of the box => errors disappoint users.
(http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.voip.sip-communicator.devel/12677)

Offline messages are very commonly supported on XMPP servers. This is
indeed less common for SIP, but there's really nothing we can do about it.

6- Some (minor) glitches with echo cancellation, video quality and
interface behaviour make people think it's not reliable... (oh boy)

We are doing our best to fix those as we find them. We actually have an
complete re-skin coming up in the following week or two :).

So all in all, I do understand most of your concerns but they are not
all Jitsi's problems to fix. Providers also have a significant role to
play here :).

That's all I can think of right now. In any case CONGRATULATIONS to all
Jitsi developers for the great work and a huge THANK YOU for that
amazing software. Jitsi is on my top 5 most beloved software today.

Thank you very much for your kind words! We really appreciate it!

Cheers,
Emil

Feel free to use my tutorial if you wish, it's under creative commons or
to ask me more details or whatever I can do to help, I will.

Cheers
William

On 07/05/2012 09:58 AM, Emil Ivov wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends'
issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to
achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they
encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is,
indeed, not particularly constructive.

--sent from my mobile

On Jul 5, 2012 2:36 PM, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com >>> <mailto:gboelter@gmail.com>> wrote:

     Sorry, it's not me who has problem with Jitsi, my friends are
     having problems with Jitsi.

     Here is an original feedback from a Mac OS X User:

     "Jitsi hab ich heruntergeladen und installiert. Das ist ja nun das
     un�bersichtlichste Messenger-Programm, das mit je untergekommen
     ist. Also, das werde ich gewiss nicht benutzen."

     "I have downloaded and installed Jitsi. That's the most confusing
     software I have ever seen. This I will definitely not use."

     And from 25+ other Friends I got similiar comments.

     I will thinks about some suggestions to make Jitsi more useable,
     but at the moment I'm too busy for that.

     Guenther


#15

I will ask my friends again to tell me their opinion and then I will be back here again. But this will take a few days. At the miment I'm to busy, so hopefully next week I can do that.

Guenther

···

On 07/05/2012 08:58 PM, Emil Ivov wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Guenther,

One thing that would help would be to know exactly what your friends' issues were. What did they find complicated? What were they trying to achieve, how did they expect to achieve it and what problems did they encounter while doing it.

Just stating that they find it complicated and would never use it is, indeed, not particularly constructive.


#16

Another sad truth from an end user convenience point of view is that
applications like Skype are excellent at hopping through firewalls,
giving users the impression that they "just work", while any
application that "plays by the rules" is very easy to block, and
indeed blocked in most modern corporate environments.

End user perception: Skype + web clients (Gchat, FBchat) work
everywhere, anything else doesn't. Another barrier to switch. :frowning:

Alex


#17

It's not really about playing by the rules. Jitsi already does a lot in
terms of NAT and firewall traversal. It would even go over https only
networks with Google.

We just need to make this available over SIP and regular XMPP as well.

Emil

···

On 06.07.12 15:17, ix4svs@gmail.com wrote:

Another sad truth from an end user convenience point of view is that
applications like Skype are excellent at hopping through firewalls,
giving users the impression that they "just work", while any
application that "plays by the rules" is very easy to block, and
indeed blocked in most modern corporate environments.

End user perception: Skype + web clients (Gchat, FBchat) work
everywhere, anything else doesn't. Another barrier to switch. :frowning:

Alex

--
Emil Ivov, Ph.D. 67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31


#18

Could we cut on the negativity please?. It's like someone comes along
and says "my two idiot friends think Jitsi is a mess" and suddenly a
long thread develops saying why Jitsi allegedly sucks.

H*ck, my mother can't figure her way around the Windows Control Panel.
Does it mean that Control Panel is difficult to use?

FC

···

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 10:17 AM, <ix4svs@gmail.com> wrote:

Another sad truth from an end user convenience point of view is that
applications like Skype are excellent at hopping through firewalls,
giving users the impression that they "just work", while any
application that "plays by the rules" is very easy to block


#19

That's right Alex, but different to Skype there should be an easy way to block different service (protocolls) in a company network for example.

Regards
Guenther

···

On 07/06/2012 09:17 PM, ix4svs@gmail.com wrote:

Another sad truth from an end user convenience point of view is that
applications like Skype are excellent at hopping through firewalls,
giving users the impression that they "just work", while any
application that "plays by the rules" is very easy to block, and
indeed blocked in most modern corporate environments.

End user perception: Skype + web clients (Gchat, FBchat) work
everywhere, anything else doesn't. Another barrier to switch. :frowning:

Alex

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