[jitsi-users] Re: Doubts about jitsi


#1

Thank you very much for your answers, Emil. Here are some comments /
more questions.

:::

···

На 31.08.11 09:26, karolas@mail.md написа:

   Hi. Happy to learn about the work you are doing on jitsi. I would like to make a suggestion: That someone add Jitsiś features to Features and Features2 in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_clients - it is missing.

Well I do see it in all the tables on the page you quote. Did you mean another page?

It is in all tables but not in the last two- called Features and
Features 2.

Are all servers essentially the same?

No they are not. I am not sure which differences you are interested in

though.

Privacy mostly I think, like not logging, but it seems not to be a
problem if using the builtin encryptions.
Any recommendation on what XMPP and SIP server to choose, or is there a
place where I can see reliable comparison between servers?

Is it sufficient to use otr and encryption plugins?

Sufficient for what? What encryption plugins?

Sufficient to avoid interception from the server and 3rd parties. From
your answer I believe yes. Aw, no other encryption plugins, not needed I
guess

If I use XMPP to message with a skype

You cannot really use XMPP to chat with a skype user. Skype uses a

proprietary protocol that has nothing to do with XMPP. In the case of
Facebook, they do seem to be using XMPP for the FB2Skype chats but
that's not really an interop scenario.

From recently now it is possible to:

http://xmpp.org/2011/06/skype-adds-xmpp-support/

   or gtalk or facebook user off-the-record, is it guaranteed to not be recorded by skype or Google or facebook?

There might be some confusion here. What Google call "off the record" is
just the possibility they give you not to keep archives of your
sessions. What we call OTR does stand for the same words (i.e. "Off The
Record") but it is actually a mechanism to encrypt text messages.

As for the difference between the two: Trusting Google's "Off the
record" feature comes down to whether or not you trust Google to keep
their word on that. Technically they still have the possibility to log
your chats without you knowing it.

With OTR it comes down to trusting the encryption mechanisms. If anyone
wants to log your chats with OTR, then they would have to find a way to
break those.

I had understood that difference between otr already, so to clarify, my
question was if you use jitsi with jitsi's OTR to talk to another person
using gtalk. Does that work at all? I would say no, because the other
person would have to have OTR-encryption and google does not have this
feature, right?

What about you using a XMPP account in jitsi with jitsi's otr and the
other person using another XMPP client that supports otr natively or
thru plugin (like pidgin I think does) would that work? But I think XMPP
clients normally dont have video encryption, only text.

   If I use XMPP video or phone call with a skype I am not aware of a way to do XMPP video calls between XMPP and Skype

clients.

I asked this because of this skype new feature of adding XMPP.

   or gtalk user can it be intercepted by skype or Google? If you don't use encryption - then yes. If you do have ZRTP active for

your session, then you should be safe.

hm, so it depends if skype added this feature or no, no idea.

   If no, is there any way I can communicate with those users, using that protocol, without being logged by third parties? Any particular advantage of SIP over XMPP? (Because XMPP seems to be more popular.)

SIP is widely adopted for telephony services around the whole world.
XMPP is the de-facto standard for instant messaging. Since the
appearance of Jingle, XMPP is also seeing significant adoption for
telephony but it's nowhere near SIP.

Semantically both protocols are quite similar (with a few syntactic
differences) and the actual differences between the two protocols mostly
comes down to the products that support them.

In other words, while in theory you can do the same things with both
protocols, in practice, those that implement SIP tend to have more
telephony oriented features and less IM/Presence related ones. Similarly
XMPP implementations would often come with a great IM/Presence
featureset, but would often lack some of the more advanced
telephony-oriented features that SIP products have.

In the case of Jitsi - we try to keep them leveraged as much as
possible. Still, XMPP does have an edge with the IM part and SIP servers
that Jitsi connects to simply offer more audio/video services that are
not commonly available for XMPP users.

hm, that was my previous impression. Is the text, audio and video
encryption of jitsi the same for both SIP and XMPP, or is SIP safer?

I ask because if encryption is the same, then using just XMPP makes it
simpler, because it has interface with other popular platforms and so
easier to convince more friends to migrate, because I can say hey, you
can talk to skype gtalk and facebook too - even if unencrypted. And when
I talk to those friends jitsi to jitsi, we could both encrypt. And no
need to create an account for XMPP and an account for SIP. I don't know
if this makes sense.

::::

One more question I have is if audio and video encryption also
available for computer-to-phone calls and videocalls, or just
computer-to-computer, both for XMPP and SIP? Does jitsi support this at
all, by the way - paying of course?

If not, any alternatives to skype you could recommend, that uses
encryption computer-to-phone and no risk of logging? (hm, Skype uses
encryption, but their code is closed so skype itself could log and store
stuff I suppose.)

Thank you!

--
Emil Ivov, Ph.D. 67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31


#2

Hey Karol,

На 02.09.11 22:32, karolas@mail.md написа:

Thank you very much for your answers, Emil. Here are some comments /
more questions.

:::

На 31.08.11 09:26, karolas@mail.md написа:

   Hi. Happy to learn about the work you are doing on jitsi. I would like to make a suggestion: That someone add Jitsiś features to Features and Features2 in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_clients - it is missing.

Well I do see it in all the tables on the page you quote. Did you mean another page?

It is in all tables but not in the last two- called Features and
Features 2.

Are all servers essentially the same?

No they are not. I am not sure which differences you are interested in

though.

Privacy mostly I think, like not logging, but it seems not to be a
problem if using the builtin encryptions.
Any recommendation on what XMPP and SIP server to choose, or is there a
place where I can see reliable comparison between servers?

I am not aware of one. You can use jit.si for XMPP and iptel.org or
ippi.com for SIP.

Is it sufficient to use otr and encryption plugins?

Sufficient for what? What encryption plugins?

Sufficient to avoid interception from the server and 3rd parties. From
your answer I believe yes. Aw, no other encryption plugins, not needed I
guess

If I use XMPP to message with a skype

You cannot really use XMPP to chat with a skype user. Skype uses a

proprietary protocol that has nothing to do with XMPP. In the case of
Facebook, they do seem to be using XMPP for the FB2Skype chats but
that's not really an interop scenario.

>From recently now it is possible to:
http://xmpp.org/2011/06/skype-adds-xmpp-support/

Unfortunately that post is a bit misleading. It does refer to the same
FB2Skype chats I was mentioning and it only consists in having Skype
connect to FB via XMPP. There's no way that I am aware of which allows
an XMPP client to connect to the Skype network.

   or gtalk or facebook user off-the-record, is it guaranteed to not be recorded by skype or Google or facebook?

There might be some confusion here. What Google call "off the record" is
just the possibility they give you not to keep archives of your
sessions. What we call OTR does stand for the same words (i.e. "Off The
Record") but it is actually a mechanism to encrypt text messages.

As for the difference between the two: Trusting Google's "Off the
record" feature comes down to whether or not you trust Google to keep
their word on that. Technically they still have the possibility to log
your chats without you knowing it.

With OTR it comes down to trusting the encryption mechanisms. If anyone
wants to log your chats with OTR, then they would have to find a way to
break those.

I had understood that difference between otr already, so to clarify, my
question was if you use jitsi with jitsi's OTR to talk to another person
using gtalk. Does that work at all? I would say no, because the other
person would have to have OTR-encryption and google does not have this
feature, right?

The GoogleTalk clients don't seem to currently have the feature indeed.
However, if both clients that are connecting to the Google services have
OTR, then it would work.

What about you using a XMPP account in jitsi with jitsi's otr and the
other person using another XMPP client that supports otr natively or
thru plugin (like pidgin I think does) would that work?

Yes.

But I think XMPP

clients normally dont have video encryption, only text.

Personally, other than Jitsi, I am not aware of any that do.

   If I use XMPP video or phone call with a skype
I am not aware of a way to do XMPP video calls between XMPP and Skype

clients.

I asked this because of this skype new feature of adding XMPP.

Well again, that's only about having Skype connect to FB via XMPP and
using it for chats only.

   or gtalk user can it be intercepted by skype or Google?
If you don't use encryption - then yes. If you do have ZRTP active for

your session, then you should be safe.

hm, so it depends if skype added this feature or no, no idea.

If Skype wanted they could indeed add an XMPP gateway to their network.
It is not entirely unreasonable to expect that this may happen some day
in the following years ... So far however, they have never shown any
interest in doing so.

   If no, is there any way I can communicate with those users, using that protocol, without being logged by third parties? Any particular advantage of SIP over XMPP? (Because XMPP seems to be more popular.)

SIP is widely adopted for telephony services around the whole world.
XMPP is the de-facto standard for instant messaging. Since the
appearance of Jingle, XMPP is also seeing significant adoption for
telephony but it's nowhere near SIP.

Semantically both protocols are quite similar (with a few syntactic
differences) and the actual differences between the two protocols mostly
comes down to the products that support them.

In other words, while in theory you can do the same things with both
protocols, in practice, those that implement SIP tend to have more
telephony oriented features and less IM/Presence related ones. Similarly
XMPP implementations would often come with a great IM/Presence
featureset, but would often lack some of the more advanced
telephony-oriented features that SIP products have.

In the case of Jitsi - we try to keep them leveraged as much as
possible. Still, XMPP does have an edge with the IM part and SIP servers
that Jitsi connects to simply offer more audio/video services that are
not commonly available for XMPP users.

hm, that was my previous impression. Is the text, audio and video
encryption of jitsi the same for both SIP and XMPP, or is SIP safer?

Jitsi does not currently have text encryption for SIP currently. Both
protocols use the same mechanisms for audio and video.

I ask because if encryption is the same, then using just XMPP makes it
simpler, because it has interface with other popular platforms and so
easier to convince more friends to migrate, because I can say hey, you
can talk to skype gtalk and facebook too - even if unencrypted. And when
I talk to those friends jitsi to jitsi, we could both encrypt. And no
need to create an account for XMPP and an account for SIP. I don't know
if this makes sense.

It does.

::::

One more question I have is if audio and video encryption also
available for computer-to-phone calls and videocalls, or just
computer-to-computer, both for XMPP and SIP? Does jitsi support this at
all, by the way - paying of course?

This is not up to Jitsi to support. Calls to regular phones that
originate in an IP network need to go through a gateway. The best you
can hope for there is that your flows are encrypted until that gateway.
(This is rarely the case however). The gateway itself needs to see the
actual media streams in order to transcode them to something that it can
then send through the telephone network. Once your call gets there,
there it is entirely transparent to the operators that are transporting it.

If not, any alternatives to skype you could recommend

Note that the above is also the case with Skype. Your calls may be
encrypted between Skype and the Skype telephony gateway. Once they get
on the gateway however they are out in the clear.

, that uses

encryption computer-to-phone and no risk of logging?

Afraid not.

(hm, Skype uses

encryption, but their code is closed so skype itself could log and store
stuff I suppose.)

Not only Skype. Your calls are open to the telephone operators too.

Hope this helps,

Emil

···

Thank you!

--
Emil Ivov, Ph.D. 67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31

--
Emil Ivov, Ph.D. 67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31


#3

Hey Karol,

На 02.09.11 22:32, karolas@mail.md написа:

Thank you very much for your answers, Emil. Here are some comments /
more questions.

:::

На 31.08.11 09:26, karolas@mail.md написа:

   Hi. Happy to learn about the work you are doing on jitsi. I would like to make a suggestion: That someone add Jitsiś features to Features and Features2 in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_clients - it is missing.

Well I do see it in all the tables on the page you quote. Did you mean another page?

It is in all tables but not in the last two- called Features and
Features 2.

Are all servers essentially the same?

No they are not. I am not sure which differences you are interested in

though.

Privacy mostly I think, like not logging, but it seems not to be a
problem if using the builtin encryptions.
Any recommendation on what XMPP and SIP server to choose, or is there a
place where I can see reliable comparison between servers?

I am not aware of one. You can use jit.si for XMPP and iptel.org or
ippi.com for SIP.

Is it sufficient to use otr and encryption plugins?

Sufficient for what? What encryption plugins?

Sufficient to avoid interception from the server and 3rd parties. From
your answer I believe yes. Aw, no other encryption plugins, not needed I
guess

You can't avoid generating connection data at the 3rd party when you use
their servers. Using OTR you can however avoid any _content_ to be
logged. Jitsi or Pidgin+OTRPlugin is the same and works together.

If I use XMPP to message with a skype

You cannot really use XMPP to chat with a skype user. Skype uses a

proprietary protocol that has nothing to do with XMPP. In the case of
Facebook, they do seem to be using XMPP for the FB2Skype chats but
that's not really an interop scenario.

>From recently now it is possible to:
http://xmpp.org/2011/06/skype-adds-xmpp-support/

Unfortunately that post is a bit misleading. It does refer to the same
FB2Skype chats I was mentioning and it only consists in having Skype
connect to FB via XMPP. There's no way that I am aware of which allows
an XMPP client to connect to the Skype network.

   or gtalk or facebook user off-the-record, is it guaranteed to not be recorded by skype or Google or facebook?

There might be some confusion here. What Google call "off the record" is
just the possibility they give you not to keep archives of your
sessions. What we call OTR does stand for the same words (i.e. "Off The
Record") but it is actually a mechanism to encrypt text messages.

As for the difference between the two: Trusting Google's "Off the
record" feature comes down to whether or not you trust Google to keep
their word on that. Technically they still have the possibility to log
your chats without you knowing it.

With OTR it comes down to trusting the encryption mechanisms. If anyone
wants to log your chats with OTR, then they would have to find a way to
break those.

I had understood that difference between otr already, so to clarify, my
question was if you use jitsi with jitsi's OTR to talk to another person
using gtalk. Does that work at all? I would say no, because the other
person would have to have OTR-encryption and google does not have this
feature, right?

The GoogleTalk clients don't seem to currently have the feature indeed.
However, if both clients that are connecting to the Google services have
OTR, then it would work.

What about you using a XMPP account in jitsi with jitsi's otr and the
other person using another XMPP client that supports otr natively or
thru plugin (like pidgin I think does) would that work?

Yes.

But I think XMPP

clients normally dont have video encryption, only text.

Personally, other than Jitsi, I am not aware of any that do.

That's sad, but still makes jitsi ever more awesome :slight_smile:

   If I use XMPP video or phone call with a skype
I am not aware of a way to do XMPP video calls between XMPP and Skype

clients.

I asked this because of this skype new feature of adding XMPP.

Well again, that's only about having Skype connect to FB via XMPP and
using it for chats only.

   or gtalk user can it be intercepted by skype or Google?
If you don't use encryption - then yes. If you do have ZRTP active for

your session, then you should be safe.

hm, so it depends if skype added this feature or no, no idea.

If Skype wanted they could indeed add an XMPP gateway to their network.
It is not entirely unreasonable to expect that this may happen some day
in the following years ... So far however, they have never shown any
interest in doing so.

   If no, is there any way I can communicate with those users, using that protocol, without being logged by third parties? Any particular advantage of SIP over XMPP? (Because XMPP seems to be more popular.)

SIP is widely adopted for telephony services around the whole world.
XMPP is the de-facto standard for instant messaging. Since the
appearance of Jingle, XMPP is also seeing significant adoption for
telephony but it's nowhere near SIP.

Semantically both protocols are quite similar (with a few syntactic
differences) and the actual differences between the two protocols mostly
comes down to the products that support them.

In other words, while in theory you can do the same things with both
protocols, in practice, those that implement SIP tend to have more
telephony oriented features and less IM/Presence related ones. Similarly
XMPP implementations would often come with a great IM/Presence
featureset, but would often lack some of the more advanced
telephony-oriented features that SIP products have.

In the case of Jitsi - we try to keep them leveraged as much as
possible. Still, XMPP does have an edge with the IM part and SIP servers
that Jitsi connects to simply offer more audio/video services that are
not commonly available for XMPP users.

Maybe many Android phones can be called by XMPP soon. I hope ZRTP finds
its way to phones as well.

But I have a related question here: When I create a "Group" to a SIP
account in jitsi, that's only local to that jitsi installation. The only
way to have a contact list is XCAP right?

Do you know any freely usable public XCAP servers? Or is it simple to
install OpenXCAP on a LAMP? And is that sufficient?

hm, that was my previous impression. Is the text, audio and video
encryption of jitsi the same for both SIP and XMPP, or is SIP safer?

Jitsi does not currently have text encryption for SIP currently. Both
protocols use the same mechanisms for audio and video.

I ask because if encryption is the same, then using just XMPP makes it
simpler, because it has interface with other popular platforms and so
easier to convince more friends to migrate, because I can say hey, you
can talk to skype gtalk and facebook too - even if unencrypted. And when
I talk to those friends jitsi to jitsi, we could both encrypt. And no
need to create an account for XMPP and an account for SIP. I don't know
if this makes sense.

It does.

::::

One more question I have is if audio and video encryption also
available for computer-to-phone calls and videocalls, or just
computer-to-computer, both for XMPP and SIP? Does jitsi support this at
all, by the way - paying of course?

This is not up to Jitsi to support. Calls to regular phones that
originate in an IP network need to go through a gateway. The best you
can hope for there is that your flows are encrypted until that gateway.
(This is rarely the case however). The gateway itself needs to see the
actual media streams in order to transcode them to something that it can
then send through the telephone network. Once your call gets there,
there it is entirely transparent to the operators that are transporting it.

If you want encrypted telephony out there with a phone, you could do
that doing a jabber-call through mobile internet with a phone (actually
a computer that looks like a phone) that has ZRTP installed. The N900
_could_ do that but so far only theoretically.

If not, any alternatives to skype you could recommend

Note that the above is also the case with Skype. Your calls may be
encrypted between Skype and the Skype telephony gateway. Once they get
on the gateway however they are out in the clear.

, that uses

encryption computer-to-phone and no risk of logging?

Afraid not.

(hm, Skype uses

encryption, but their code is closed so skype itself could log and store
stuff I suppose.)

Not only Skype. Your calls are open to the telephone operators too.

Hope this helps,

Emil

Thank you!

--
Emil Ivov, Ph.D. 67000 Strasbourg,
Project Lead France
Jitsi
emcho@jitsi.org PHONE: +33.1.77.62.43.30
http://jitsi.org FAX: +33.1.77.62.47.31

Thanks!

···

On 2011-09-07 10:57, Emil Ivov wrote:

--
  Martin Kepplinger

E-Mail & Jabber martinkepplinger AT eml.cc
2. Jabber address mkepplinger AT jit.si
GPG Key C100 D7B5 7F2A 1E26
diaspora handle martinkepplinger AT joindiaspora.com


#4

Hey Martin,

На 07.09.11 14:17, Martin Kepplinger написа:

But I have a related question here: When I create a "Group" to a SIP
account in jitsi, that's only local to that jitsi installation. The only
way to have a contact list is XCAP right?

Do you know any freely usable public XCAP servers? Or is it simple to
install OpenXCAP on a LAMP? And is that sufficient?

It should be. It doesn't have to be connected to your SIP server in any
way. You just have to tell Jitsi where to store the contacts for a
particular account.

Cheers,
Emil