I'm trying to help a friend troubleshoot some connection issues.
I deleted the Jitsi log and them called him on XMPP. The attached
log is ONLY a log of my initial connection to the servers then my
attempted call to him.
THIS is the politically correct me writing:
1.You dont say if you're using the 2.2 stable or 2.3 nightlies.
2.You also dont include the specs of your system, OS,etc 3.And you
dont say if the other party is using the latest code (maybe the
other party is using an older version?)
You're right, I didn't Completely forgot to do so:
1. Both of us are using stable. Nightlies have proven to be
problematic for both of us (as well as a few others, it seems).
2. My system is Fedora 18 running the current XFCE. His is, I believe,
3. As I said in point 1, both of us are using stable since nightlies
have been somewhat problematic. In fact, I believe he tried nightly to
see if it would fix his problem and it didn't so he reverted back to
AND THIS is the blunt me speaking:
I'm also skeptical of replying to you (even while I'm just a Jitsi
user, not a dev), since you seem to be playing good cop-bad cop,
asking questions here and then bashing Jitsi on your google+
account and other social media..
You see that as "good cop/bad cop"? Let's be honest, Jitsi has a *lot*
of issues; issues that are driving people crazy. This list is *about*
Jitsi and this is where the community gathers. Where else would I go
for help? If the devs get pissed off, then let them ignore me. But
there's nothing wrong with me coming here asking for help.
Also, I'm not "bashing" Jitsi. Is there anything I said on my Google+
post that's not true? I and many others have experienced *every single
one* of the things I've mentioned. These issues aren't secret. Not
talking about them doesn't make them go away and talking about them
doesn't equal 'bashing' Jitsi.
"I usually don't bash open source projects because I know that
developers are usually donating their time to create something
that others can use and like. But I really can't keep quiet about
Jitsi anymore. It's simply reached a point where I have to say and
(...) [you usually dont but there you do,just a single time, I
Exactly. That's how bad I think the situation with the software has
become. I'm usually pretty laid back and understanding about open
source stuff. But this is different IMHO.
"After 10 years, it's still a mess and isn't likely to get any
better. So Jitsi needs to be replaced. It has to go. "The best
we've got" simply isn't good enough anymore. We need something
better. We need something that works for most users without all the
black magic having to be done."
So you're a futurologist, too? Maybe the NYT praised Jitsi because
it's a program that doesnt work?
The NYT praised Jitsi because it's the "best at what it does" but that
doesn't say much, does it? There's not a lot of completely cross
platform, secure, multi-protocol messengers out there that support
voice, video, and IM.
And, no, I'm not a futurologist. But the future is largely determined
by the past. How long are we supposed to give the benefit of the doubt
before it's 'acceptable' to you for someone to do something? Why do
you seem so threatened by someone not being happy with the program and
wanting something that works well and reliably? Have you heard of
PRISM? The NSA? The need for security?
I'll be blunt: I think you are a troll, you and your anti-java
I'll be blunt too; I don't care what you think. I think you're a
protectionist who doesn't like to see their favorite programs spoken
badly of even if everything someone says is true. I'm not trying to be
rude here just blunt. You seem very defensive over a simple Google+ post.
I see that you're also soliciting help in Twitter for building "a
Jitsi that works", implying (FUD) that Jitsi doesn't,
It's interesting that you've chosen to pick apart my various postings.
You've spent a lot of time stalking me around the net to see what I've
been saying. Feel free to follow me on Twitter and Google+ if you'd
like. I love new followers.
May I ask what FUD I'm spreading?
1. I said there are issues with the UI. Is that true? Yes, it is.
People have complained about them here and I've experienced them
myself. Double contacts, parts of the UI disappearing, a confused
state of the UI about being ZRTP secured or not. Those are all "issues
with the UI" so no FUD there.
2. Is Jitsi reliable to use? Well, I've seen tons of posts about Jitsi
sometimes being pretty persnickity in connecting to other users,
servers, etc. I've also seen myself situations where, after making a
few calls with Jitsi, the program either crashes or simply won't make
any more calls until it's restarted. This has happened on multiple
systems, multiple operating systems, on multiple networks. Also,
sometimes, for no reason at all, you can't make a call and you'll get
a weird error. Try again in a few minutes and everything seems fine.
So, I guess we're missing FUD there too.
Those are the main points in my post. Doesn't look like any FUD to me.
Looks like objective statement of fact. It's natural to feel
protective of your favorite program, but you also have to remain
objective. I love Jitsi and I use it every single day. But that
doesn't mean I don't see the problems or would attack someone who
wanted to bring something better to the community. It's big enough for
more than one secure IM and, in the end, with both out there, the
community will decide what's acceptable and not, right? The beauty of
open source, market driven, development.
... and you plan to do it with RealBasic. Well, good luck with
that. "Are you a good #RealBasic / #Xojo developer?good at #crypto?
Come help us develop an alternative to #Jitsi that works! Email
...and Xojo RT you... what a coincidence. The makers of a
proprietary cross-platform dev tool that claims to let one develop
apps "4 times faster than c++ and java". The good news then is
that it will take you only 2.5 years to code in Xojo what took Emil
10 years to code in Java!. That would be 2016! Please let us know
Have you ever actually *used* RealBasic/Xojo? If you have then it
seems like you're exercising your right to spread a little FUD, aren't
you? Because, if you have used Xojo, then you know it's not really
"BASIC" at all. It's actually closer to Java than anything else. It's
got proper objects and everything else you'd expect from a modern
language. And, of course, there are a number of commercial apps,
including in the Mac App Store, written in Xojo. I assume you've taken
some time to look those up?
I don't think it *will* take 2.5 years. I think Emil took so long to
write Jitsi because he was working with a smaller team and probably
not always full time. What we're talking about is a more concerted
effort with a larger team. While Xojo will indeed bring its own issues
to the table, I suspect they might not be as severe or game-stopping
as Java has. Just a guess. But I'll be sure to keep you informed as we
And, going back to something you said earlier, I don't have an
'anti-Java agenda'. Sure, it's not my favorite language, but I'm
certainly not against using it in development. I have other issues
besides Java that make me want to do an independent effort. Those
issues I won't bring up here simply because, contrary to what you may
believe, my goal is *not* to disrespect wither Emil, who I actually
greatly admire and respect, or the work he and the team have done in
Now, again, what are your intentions on this list and with Jitsi?.
Are you genuinely interested in seeing where is the problem with
your setup/config(the other party could be using Jitsi 1.0 for all
we know) -if there is one to begin with, at this point I'm not sure
I trust anything you say- , or have you already decided that Jitsi
"doesnt work" and "needs to go"?. Judging by the above quotes, its
I think if you go to the list archives and search for my name you'll
see what my intentions are. My intentions are to have a usable,
reliable, IM and voice/video client that's secure.
I really do hope that you take an honest, serious, non-fanboy, look at
the issues surrounding Jitsi. Maybe in the end, it doesn't need to be
replaced, but something needs to be done to address the continued
problems many users are experiencing.
I'm truly sorry you've chosen to call me out publicly on the list
instead of doing so privately. I think this kind of bickering really
has no place here and I'll ask that you email me off-list if you want
to continue a discussion. However, so you don't think I'm trying to
hide anything, I'm saying right now that you are free to share any
email I send to you privately with Emil. the Jitsi team, or even the
list if you think it's the right thing to do. However, I'm not going
to engage in a back and forth about this on the list. It's clutter and
will likely frustrate users who are looking for help and don't want to
read two guys exchange opinions about development.
And why do you request further help when you said (quote above)
that you know it wont possibly get any better?
Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't think it can't get *any*
better and I believe *some* of the issues are likely configuration
issues. But I think it's fair to say that not all of them are problems
that can't be fixed with a simple configuration change. Those are the
problems I'm referring to that I don't see getting any better. I'm
sure you understood that's what I meant but were having a little fun
trying to call me out. No problem there, feel free.
Please forgive if I have second thoughs or I'm a bit suspicious,
but you present yourself as a developer and Linux user, "We
specialize in small and mid-sized business software and IT
consulting focused mostly around Linux and open source"
... but you praise the MSFT VB team:.
"You can imagine my excitement when I saw on the Visual Basic Team
Blog a new marketing and promotion effort by Microsoft called "I'm
a VB". I'm a VB features interviews - both text and video - with
ordinary developers who use VB in their daily work. As you might
imagine, I was more than happy to contribute my story."
you've done your research! Thanks for pointing people to my blog.
Let me explain:
I'm not a fanboy. It's as simple as that. I don't believe that just
because something comes from Microsoft it's evil and I believe that
MS's development tools are actually pretty good. I share that belief
with many other Linux users and developers. I fault Microsoft for two
things: 1) Their security and 2) their business practices. Some of the
software they write is really good. Look at Visual Studio, look at
Microsoft Office, it's not too bad.
I should also point out, in case anyone missed it, that you pulled
that post from almost *4 years ago*. I don't know about you but I know
*my* opinions, likes, and dislikes change over time. Maybe you're just
more of a solid guy then I am and hold no changing opinions. I'm not
so strong, I'm afraid.
And here you slam Linux and praise Microsoft for its OS security: "
I think you'll find Microsoft is doing a pretty bang up job with
security these days. The chants of 'Linux is going to OWN Windows'
are fading away."
I'm not quire sure where you read that as 'slaming Linix'? It's widely
recognized that Microsoft *has* come a long way in their security.
Windows 7 is *leaps and bounds* more secure than some of it's
predecessors. That's not to say they're perfect but they have indeed
come a long way.
On the other hand, I'm also not quite sure what this has to do with me
wanting to create a new IM client? I suspect it's just you having a
bit of fun again trying to discredit me. OK, you're choice I suppose.
..and I remember when you first joined this list at the time of
the JRE applet/browser plugin based security exploit scare, saying
that Jitsi was a security hazard and needed to be rewritten in some
other language. Guess Jitsi worked ok for you back then? Or were
you just a concerned citizen wishing to warn others about the
"dangers of Java" and Jitsi?
Do you *really* remember when I joined the list? I seem to remember it
differently. I seem to remember my first few post going nuts about
problems I was having with Jitsi to the point where Emil called me
down on it. That seems to have dominated my early history on the list.
And, yes, I did believe and still do believe that Java could indeed be
a security risk in the right situations.
Do you see something wrong with being a 'concerned citizen' or are we
back to the 'see something, don't say anything' discussion here?
While you're at it you could update your blog post about Microsoft
and security to include this year's landmark of despite having
"13,000 Windows employees on security-focused development"
http://pages.citebite.com/r9c3b5j0dpge they left an IE 0day hole
open for two weeks. That's one heck of an "attack surface", if you
ask me. http://pages.citebite.com/o9h3g5q3uvwb
Well, I'm sorry I didn't include that bit on Microsoft security. I
would think though that the post that was written about a month ago
talking about Microsoft handing over exploits to the NSA would have
been enough to tell most users Windows isn't secure. See, I don't view
users as stupid. I usually like to imagine that they can figure things
out. People are pretty smart if you give them a chance to be,
Oh, sorry, I know, you're just, as your blog says, a "random guy"
with "random thoughts". So I'm sorry for having bad thoughts about
your aims and motives, I was wrong... *cough* *cough*
Oh you're free to have any suspicions you want about my aims and
motives. I mean, I have a *lot* of thoughts about *your* aims and
motives too so I guess we're both kind of in the same place. But, in
the end, through all the meandering through my social sites, blogs,
list archives, etc, I still don't really see what your point is? Is it
that Jitsi is the saviour and doesn't need any work? Is it that
everything works absolutely fine and everybody who's complaining or
having problems are just too stupid to figure it out? Or is it that
I'm some evil hacker or maybe just an idiot trying to mislead the
faithful into something sinister?
Forgive me if I've misunderstood but it's quite late (or early, as the
case may be) and I'm not totally clearheaded at this hour.
So, best of luck with you Basic Jitsi-killer
Thank you for your support! Like I said earlier, I'll definitely keep
you updated on how it goes. I suspect it will go rather well.
Thank YOU for the great late night conversation. Feel free to email me
off the list or even add me to your XMPP or SIP list. My contact info
On 08/01/2013 02:26 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Anthony Papillion > <email@example.com> wrote: