[jitsi-users] default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie


#1

I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

Currently, Empathy is installed by default

There are several reasons I am suggesting this and it is possible that
Empathy could address some of them before the release freeze in
November but we should be completely prepared to go with Jitsi if they
continue to be the leaders in this area.

* Google dependency: Empathy is hard-coded[1] to use Google
   media relay (TURN) servers for NAT traversal. It can't
   be configured to use a TURN server on a Debian server,
   even though we have three TURN servers packaged for our
   users. This means that when Google shifts the goal posts
   (as they already did, ditching true XMPP to promote
   Google hangouts[2]) or when they have a service outage[3] then
   Debian's users are left high and dry. There are also privacy
   concerns, Google themselves report a 120% increase in the amount
   of data they officially and knowingly give to their government[4].
   Jitsi supports any user-specified TURN server for XMPP and they
   plan to support TURN for SIP too.

* Convenient NAPTR discovery. Empathy does not autoconfigure
   itself with services (such as Debian.org's own SIP proxy) that
   have NAPTR records in DNS[5]. With Jitsi, this just works.

* WebRTC integration (calling from browsers to Jitsi desktop).
   This depends on new media stream features (e.g. DTLS-SRTP and AVPF)
   that are not supported in Empathy yet[6].

* ZRTP - peer to peer encryption, like PGP for VoIP. Once again,
   it has been in Jitsi for ages but is not in Empathy[7]

* Upstream. Both Empathy and Jitsi upstreams are very
   good developers. Jitsi seem to have an edge though.
   Just look at how quickly they turned out the
   JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC
   browsers - it is a phenomenal achievement and delivered
   in good time to help free software gain traction in the
   emerging WebRTC space before any vested interests try to
   monopolize the technology.

The whole real-time communications (RTC) space is very important for
free software in general. If it fails to work conveniently and
reliably, the peer pressure of family and friends pull people back into
dangerous non-free solutions. Some of these solutions are a threat to
the whole concept of free software on mainstream desktops. With all
the recent attention on communications privacy, there has never been a
better time for Debian to try and fill this gap with a solution like
Jitsi on the front-end and the various free SIP/XMPP/TURN servers in
the back-end.

To put it simply, the Jitsi team are blazing a trail in this area and
a Debian initiative to install Jitsi on every desktop will give them
more momentum and ensure more people can talk to each other in line
with our agreed definition of freedom.

1. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=704234
2.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/google-abandons-open-standards-instant-messaging
3. http://www.cnet.com/news/outage-hits-google-talk-hangouts/
4. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26786593
5. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=736149#10
6. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/telepathy/2012-June/006122.html
7. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589778
8. https://jitsi.org/Projects/JitMeet


#2

Great! Is there a bug we can vote to see this happen?

FC

···

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:

I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell


#3

On behalf of the community, thanks for the suggesting this Daniel! We are
currently in the process of preparing deb packages for Jitsi Videobridge
and our new conferencing app too, so maybe these would also help Debian's
users to get better Free communication.

--sent from my mobile

···

On 30 Mar 2014 11:44 AM, "Daniel Pocock" <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

Currently, Empathy is installed by default

There are several reasons I am suggesting this and it is possible that
Empathy could address some of them before the release freeze in
November but we should be completely prepared to go with Jitsi if they
continue to be the leaders in this area.

* Google dependency: Empathy is hard-coded[1] to use Google
   media relay (TURN) servers for NAT traversal. It can't
   be configured to use a TURN server on a Debian server,
   even though we have three TURN servers packaged for our
   users. This means that when Google shifts the goal posts
   (as they already did, ditching true XMPP to promote
   Google hangouts[2]) or when they have a service outage[3] then
   Debian's users are left high and dry. There are also privacy
   concerns, Google themselves report a 120% increase in the amount
   of data they officially and knowingly give to their government[4].
   Jitsi supports any user-specified TURN server for XMPP and they
   plan to support TURN for SIP too.

* Convenient NAPTR discovery. Empathy does not autoconfigure
   itself with services (such as Debian.org's own SIP proxy) that
   have NAPTR records in DNS[5]. With Jitsi, this just works.

* WebRTC integration (calling from browsers to Jitsi desktop).
   This depends on new media stream features (e.g. DTLS-SRTP and AVPF)
   that are not supported in Empathy yet[6].

* ZRTP - peer to peer encryption, like PGP for VoIP. Once again,
   it has been in Jitsi for ages but is not in Empathy[7]

* Upstream. Both Empathy and Jitsi upstreams are very
   good developers. Jitsi seem to have an edge though.
   Just look at how quickly they turned out the
   JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC
   browsers - it is a phenomenal achievement and delivered
   in good time to help free software gain traction in the
   emerging WebRTC space before any vested interests try to
   monopolize the technology.

The whole real-time communications (RTC) space is very important for
free software in general. If it fails to work conveniently and
reliably, the peer pressure of family and friends pull people back into
dangerous non-free solutions. Some of these solutions are a threat to
the whole concept of free software on mainstream desktops. With all
the recent attention on communications privacy, there has never been a
better time for Debian to try and fill this gap with a solution like
Jitsi on the front-end and the various free SIP/XMPP/TURN servers in
the back-end.

To put it simply, the Jitsi team are blazing a trail in this area and
a Debian initiative to install Jitsi on every desktop will give them
more momentum and ensure more people can talk to each other in line
with our agreed definition of freedom.

1. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=704234
2.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/google-abandons-open-standards-instant-messaging
3. http://www.cnet.com/news/outage-hits-google-talk-hangouts/
4. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26786593
5. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=736149#10
6. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/telepathy/2012-June/006122.html
7. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589778
8. https://jitsi.org/Projects/JitMeet

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#4

Just to clarify, it is not mandatory to install any of Empathy at all
when installing a GNOME desktop and the whole of Empathy could be left
out if GNOME is the desktop and another client (like Jitsi or Pidgin)
was preferred by the Debian community?

You can use any software you like with GNOME. But AFAIK only Empathy is
based on Telepathy, which means only Empathy gets integration with
GNOME. Only Telepathy accounts will be started up automatically and
their conversations integrated in the shell.

I agree that Empathy lacks things as a SIP client. But I strongly
disagree with the idea of moving away from it as the default IM client
for GNOME. If SIP support in Empathy is not ready for jessie, we can
still remove the SIP parts and let the user install a SIP client of her
choice.

The problems with Empathy are not specific to SIP

Most of the problems are the same for XMPP

e.g. a TURN server to relay media across unfriendly NAT routers can be
used to support any type of media stream for a SIP call, an XMPP webcam
session or a pure WebRTC browser session. Empathy doesn't currently
support standard TURN for any protocol (except a special case for Google
Talk users) and as Simon explained in his email, there is work involved
to change that.

The Jitsi people have done that work. They may also be willing to take
steps towards achieving better desktop integration, maybe not perfectly,
but maybe sufficient to give the best all-round user experience. Right
now, there is time to discuss that with them with a realistic
possibility that it would meet our needs for Jessie

However, we need to be willing to say that if they are the first (or
only) ones who do the work and hit that threshold before November, we
will give them a fair go

If developers were keen to help and spend time in this area, would it be
better to spend that effort on getting Jitsi (or another softphone) to
work more smoothly within GNOME or to get Empathy to fill in the gaps
discussed in this email or something else?

Improving the state of the SIP Telepathy stack is definitely the best
way to go for our users. But back in squeeze, such a thing did not exist
and we shipped a different client by default for SIP.

Simon has already explained that development on SIP has stopped and that
development of TURN support (for SIP or XMPP) doesn't have any immediate
resources.

How do you propose to resolve that?

Arguing that it is the "best way to go for our users" doesn't make new
development happen.

I would definitely object to shipping one based on Java, though, unless
it can work with GCJ.

That, too, is another example of making a statement about something
without giving any reasons for it. Please be more specific and then
maybe people can address your concerns.

Given the time between now and the freeze, I think it would be quite
reasonable to send requests like this (please clarify GCJ support) to
the Jitsi users list

···

On 31/03/14 13:29, Josselin Mouette wrote:

Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 12:37 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit :


#5

I'll just note one thing done well by both Empathy and Pidging and that
I could not get with Jitsi: "bonjour" messaging: peer-to-peer XMPP
messaging on the LAN using bonjour discovery.

···

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 11:04:31AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

--
Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
tzafrir@cohens.org.il | | best
tzafrir@debian.org | | friend


#6

Its not really about voting - you are very welcome to contribute to the
discussion on the debian-devel mailing list

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/

···

On 30/03/14 19:46, Fernando Cassia wrote:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro > <mailto:daniel@pocock.pro>> wrote:

    I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
    VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
    This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
    is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

Great! Is there a bug we can vote to see this happen?


#7

YEAA very great - to have a tool on the desktop what doesnt work with
any Smartphone!!! - Or at least works only "with wholes"!!!

You will have - or not You but all the others who dont know the
preferences - REALLY a LOT of FUN!

fi

···

Am 30.03.2014 19:46, schrieb Fernando Cassia:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro > <mailto:daniel@pocock.pro>> wrote:

    I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
    VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
    This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
    is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

Great! Is there a bug we can vote to see this happen?

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
revolutionary act
- George Orwell

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#8

Hi Fernando,

I am not against but FOR this idea! - But imho You should convinc the
developers (see my discussion about bandwith) to adapt only gradually
the preferences to the actual IT-mainstream. And the mainstream is - You
can read it every day in the news - the smartphones and tablet - means
ANDROID market.

I was first fascinated, that there could be such a Open-Source-Tool like
jitsi. Also I installed it on my Galaxy and on the huawei of my friend.
Who is now on the canary Islands and has only 1 Mbit Up- and 128 Kb
Downstream...

The result is not really fascinating.... - And I will change now back to
Viper - a bloody commercial App - because the Developers are amusing
with some fat video-conferencing system it seems..

Its a pitty, that if there is once a good idea and trend, peoples seems
not to remark the HOT market-changes and HOT-trends...

It seems even not possible to deliver a nightly build for the android
version...

I for my part, will always look for ONE integrated and COMPLETE Solution
- to avoid all the problems of multiple happy software-mixing...

So please understand my enormous deception, when I was obligized to
percept the REAL jitsi... - Applikation - Available for ALL Platforms
EXCEPT the most important - ANDROID! or only in a pitty performance...

fi

···

Am 30.03.2014 19:46, schrieb Fernando Cassia:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro > <mailto:daniel@pocock.pro>> wrote:

    I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging,
    VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie).
    This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it
    is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs.

Great! Is there a bug we can vote to see this happen?

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
revolutionary act
- George Orwell

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users mailing list
users@jitsi.org
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#9

to have a tool on the desktop what doesnt work with any Smartphone!!!

Huh?

- Or at least works only "with wholes"!!!

Wholes?

You will have - or not You but all the others who dont know the
preferences - REALLY a LOT of FUN!

Please try to rewrite your message.

FC

···

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Fizzlifax <fizzlifax@posteo.net> wrote:
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
- George Orwell


#10

First, top-posting, then you hijack threads.

Jitsi is a client based on OPEN STANDARDS, as such it has NO OBLIGATION
whatsoever to supporte every OS and platform out there, regardless of what
you think is the best mobile OS and platform, simply because there´s no
need to have Jitsi on ALL ends of a communication. Just use Jitsi in the
platforms that are supported and something else (using the same open
protocols, SIP, XMPP, etc) on your "other" OS.

Jitsi on Android is Alpha, not even beta,
https://download.jitsi.org/jitsi/nightly/android/ so it will take some time
to get to the point the desktop version is.

If you don´t want to be called a troll, please don´t behave as one.
FC

···

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Ralf Hesse <ralf.o.hesse@posteo.de> wrote:

So please understand my enormous deception, when I was obligized to
percept the REAL jitsi... - Applikation - Available for ALL Platforms
EXCEPT the most important - ANDROID! or only in a pitty performance...

--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell


#11

    to have a tool on the desktop what doesnt work with any Smartphone!!!

Huh?

    - Or at least works only "with wholes"!!!

Wholes?

Wholes means, that You hear from a sentence of f.e. 10 word only 5 - or
you can hear some words only half a.s.o.

So on low bandwith it seems there is no good communication.

Also - there are some difficulties to "take of the receiver" on the
smartphone - when a call is coming in.

    You will have - or not You but all the others who dont know the
    preferences - REALLY a LOT of FUN!

I beg Your pardon - for this some sarcasm to the problems above...

···

Am 31.03.2014 02:34, schrieb Fernando Cassia:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Fizzlifax <fizzlifax@posteo.net > <mailto:fizzlifax@posteo.net>> wrote:

Please try to rewrite your message.

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
revolutionary act
Durante �pocas de Enga�o Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un
Acto Revolucionario
- George Orwell

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#12

I can happily call from Jitsi to Lumicall

···

On 31/03/14 01:17, Fizzlifax wrote:

YEAA very great - to have a tool on the desktop what doesnt work with
any Smartphone!!! - Or at least works only "with wholes"!!!

You will have - or not You but all the others who dont know the
preferences - REALLY a LOT of FUN!


#13

Dieser Text wurde in Englisch geschrieben und automatisch übersetzt ins
Deutsche von Babelfish.

···

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Ralf Hesse <ralf.o.hesse@posteo.de> wrote:

Am 31.03.2014 02:34, schrieb Fernando Cassia:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Fizzlifax <fizzlifax@posteo.net> wrote:

to have a tool on the desktop what doesnt work with any Smartphone!!!

Huh?

- Or at least works only "with wholes"!!!

Wholes?

Wholes means, that You hear from a sentence of f.e. 10 word only 5 - or
you can hear some words only half a.s.o.

So on low bandwith it seems there is no good communication.

Also - there are some difficulties to "take of the receiver" on the
smartphone - when a call is coming in.

  You will have - or not You but all the others who dont know the

preferences - REALLY a LOT of FUN!

I beg Your pardon - for this some sarcasm to the problems above...

Please try to rewrite your message.

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
revolutionary act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un
Acto Revolucionario
- George Orwell

_______________________________________________
users mailing listusers@jitsi.org
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#14

No body is obligized to do anyhing...But normally everybody tries to
serve to the most important needs...

so stay behind Your restricted Obligations and have fun! - I will go
back to something more valuable what tries to follow the most important
ACTUAL needs of the MARKET!

Thanks a lot for Your support and the big Troubbles I have caused to You
in my call for waking up....

fi

···

On 31.03.2014 07:28, Fernando Cassia wrote:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Ralf Hesse <ralf.o.hesse@posteo.de> wrote:

So please understand my enormous deception, when I was obligized to
percept the REAL jitsi... - Applikation - Available for ALL Platforms
EXCEPT the most important - ANDROID! or only in a pitty performance...

First, top-posting, then you hijack threads.

Jitsi is a client based on OPEN STANDARDS, as such it has NO OBLIGATION
whatsoever to supporte every OS and platform out there, regardless of what
you think is the best mobile OS and platform, simply because there�s no
need to have Jitsi on ALL ends of a communication. Just use Jitsi in the
platforms that are supported and something else (using the same open
protocols, SIP, XMPP, etc) on your "other" OS.

Jitsi on Android is Alpha, not even beta,
https://download.jitsi.org/jitsi/nightly/android/ so it will take some time
to get to the point the desktop version is.

If you don�t want to be called a troll, please don�t behave as one.
FC

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#15

I think its http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methaqualone

···

On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Fizzlifax <fizzlifax@posteo.net> wrote:

No body is obligized to do anyhing...But normally everybody tries to serve
to the most important needs...

so stay behind Your restricted Obligations and have fun! - I will go back
to something more valuable what tries to follow the most important ACTUAL
needs of the MARKET!

Thanks a lot for Your support and the big Troubbles I have caused to You
in my call for waking up....

fi

On 31.03.2014 07:28, Fernando Cassia wrote:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Ralf Hesse <ralf.o.hesse@posteo.de> <ralf.o.hesse@posteo.de> wrote:

So please understand my enormous deception, when I was obligized to
percept the REAL jitsi... - Applikation - Available for ALL Platforms
EXCEPT the most important - ANDROID! or only in a pitty performance...

First, top-posting, then you hijack threads.

Jitsi is a client based on OPEN STANDARDS, as such it has NO OBLIGATION
whatsoever to supporte every OS and platform out there, regardless of what
you think is the best mobile OS and platform, simply because there´s no
need to have Jitsi on ALL ends of a communication. Just use Jitsi in the
platforms that are supported and something else (using the same open
protocols, SIP, XMPP, etc) on your "other" OS.

Jitsi on Android is Alpha, not even beta,https://download.jitsi.org/jitsi/nightly/android/ so it will take some time
to get to the point the desktop version is.

If you don´t want to be called a troll, please don´t behave as one.
FC

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users mailing listusers@jitsi.org
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