[jitsi-dev] splash screen always in foreground


#1

I have no idea if this occurred also previously:

after startup the splash screen is "dominant" in the foreground, even
during Jitsi loads all modules I cannot force any other application to
"cover" it unless Jitsi´s start is completed.

is this a feature?

MacOS 10.8.5 nb5354


#2

Hi,

nope its not a feature. I think its always been like this. We use the
java runtime splashscreen implementation and we have no control over
it.

Regards
damencho

···

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Mr.Smith <mr.smith476@gmail.com> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I have no idea if this occurred also previously:

after startup the splash screen is "dominant" in the foreground, even
during Jitsi loads all modules I cannot force any other application to
"cover" it unless Jitsi´s start is completed.

is this a feature?

MacOS 10.8.5 nb5354

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Desktop 10.3.1 (Build 13266)
Charset: utf-8

wsBVAwUBVHwQdHIFU87htrbeAQghLgf/UdjXhg1NO/HRFS27x/Mj9gS1r0YplX9Z
nL7K7LsXMpxoLyeoL/YIf7l+zEZaKzi669xGbTSlvgE4nFUnIWDiYjLpr5mQxNpc
KE5alNAZnOLG5nVsXGhb7vNxAPUlkl/x6wj+o2eEy31bMrZSDvba6hizMlE8EkDB
lk7qrqoETKfLMRkyKXgBrngtrY3SwdCmasVBUoELrmNVG974T7oBqj8FaQcKM/hR
UkO28mBunMreQhSGZyRKeVznLv4pgCzLd4krKiOt2icap9Ok/N6XK7v6MAnTnGQO
YlHrMCYrxkwIjntP1G0Q/W0mX2u9p4muMsdVe7cXudiknpk06Xl/Sw==
=Dk4w
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#3

I think it does qualify as a feature. That's how all splash screens behave.

--sent from my mobile

···

On 01 Dec 2014 8:09 AM, "Damian Minkov" <damencho@jitsi.org> wrote:

Hi,

nope its not a feature. I think its always been like this. We use the
java runtime splashscreen implementation and we have no control over
it.

Regards
damencho

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Mr.Smith <mr.smith476@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> I have no idea if this occurred also previously:
>
> after startup the splash screen is "dominant" in the foreground, even
> during Jitsi loads all modules I cannot force any other application to
> "cover" it unless Jitsi´s start is completed.
>
> is this a feature?
>
> MacOS 10.8.5 nb5354
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP Desktop 10.3.1 (Build 13266)
> Charset: utf-8
>
> wsBVAwUBVHwQdHIFU87htrbeAQghLgf/UdjXhg1NO/HRFS27x/Mj9gS1r0YplX9Z
> nL7K7LsXMpxoLyeoL/YIf7l+zEZaKzi669xGbTSlvgE4nFUnIWDiYjLpr5mQxNpc
> KE5alNAZnOLG5nVsXGhb7vNxAPUlkl/x6wj+o2eEy31bMrZSDvba6hizMlE8EkDB
> lk7qrqoETKfLMRkyKXgBrngtrY3SwdCmasVBUoELrmNVG974T7oBqj8FaQcKM/hR
> UkO28mBunMreQhSGZyRKeVznLv4pgCzLd4krKiOt2icap9Ok/N6XK7v6MAnTnGQO
> YlHrMCYrxkwIjntP1G0Q/W0mX2u9p4muMsdVe7cXudiknpk06Xl/Sw==
> =Dk4w
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev mailing list
> dev@jitsi.org
> Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
> http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#4

"I think it does qualify as a feature. That's how all splash screens behave.“

Which is, why using a splash screen in the first place is a very bad idea. Placing a useless splash screen right in the users face, which doesn’t even go to background if other applications are selected is very unfriendly and bad UX. Why should the user want to sit idle having to wait for jitsi to do it’s thing? The existing behavior is preventing real work from being done and is frustrating to users.

I can recall a time when jitsi did not have a splash screen. Also I can recall a time when jitsi booted up much faster. I am not sure what happened that startup times did decrease dramatically. But I disliked the rather ugly splash screen since it’s introduction.

Using an SSD here and yet jitsi still requires some time to start.

Nowadays not many applications do even use a splash screen. I can only think of the bitcoin client (which is very unstable software and a bad example). The most prominent example probably is adobe using splash screens all over the place (with the exception of acrobat).

my cents...

···

Am 01.12.2014 um 10:55 schrieb Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>:

I think it does qualify as a feature. That's how all splash screens behave.

--sent from my mobile

On 01 Dec 2014 8:09 AM, "Damian Minkov" <damencho@jitsi.org> wrote:
Hi,

nope its not a feature. I think its always been like this. We use the
java runtime splashscreen implementation and we have no control over
it.

Regards
damencho

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Mr.Smith <mr.smith476@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> I have no idea if this occurred also previously:
>
> after startup the splash screen is "dominant" in the foreground, even
> during Jitsi loads all modules I cannot force any other application to
> "cover" it unless Jitsi´s start is completed.
>
> is this a feature?
>
> MacOS 10.8.5 nb5354
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP Desktop 10.3.1 (Build 13266)
> Charset: utf-8
>
> wsBVAwUBVHwQdHIFU87htrbeAQghLgf/UdjXhg1NO/HRFS27x/Mj9gS1r0YplX9Z
> nL7K7LsXMpxoLyeoL/YIf7l+zEZaKzi669xGbTSlvgE4nFUnIWDiYjLpr5mQxNpc
> KE5alNAZnOLG5nVsXGhb7vNxAPUlkl/x6wj+o2eEy31bMrZSDvba6hizMlE8EkDB
> lk7qrqoETKfLMRkyKXgBrngtrY3SwdCmasVBUoELrmNVG974T7oBqj8FaQcKM/hR
> UkO28mBunMreQhSGZyRKeVznLv4pgCzLd4krKiOt2icap9Ok/N6XK7v6MAnTnGQO
> YlHrMCYrxkwIjntP1G0Q/W0mX2u9p4muMsdVe7cXudiknpk06Xl/Sw==
> =Dk4w
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev mailing list
> dev@jitsi.org
> Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
> http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev
_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#5

I totally agree with you, foss.

And here my cents...

@damencho:

In science, and I regard software engineering as science,

sentences like "all are doing that" or "it has always been like this"

are a no go! Otherwise men kin would not have made any progress as

at a particular point in time everything "has always been like it is"!

Science always lives from objectiveness, transparency,

measure-ability, reproducibility� and re-thinking of finding, laws and

processes (by the way, good base principles for life also ;-).

If a system has to load a lot of libraries and to do a lot of configs at

startup it is wise to separate this into threads, build the mostly

used features first, show UI etc. and load the other stuff in background.

This splash screen is something like telling:

"You have to watch how long we need to start! No other way!" This kind of

hinders the acceptance a lot, as foss pointed out.

Cheers,

Matt
···

emcho@jitsi.org

damencho@jitsi.org

mr.smith476@gmail.comdev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#6

I totally agree with you, foss.

And here my cents...

Jez, that discussion again. It's not like it hasn't been there for a year
now.

@damencho:
In science, and I regard software engineering as science,
sentences like "all are doing that" or "it has always been like this"
are a no go! Otherwise men kin would not have made any progress as
at a particular point in time everything "has always been like it is"!
Science always lives from objectiveness, transparency,
measure-ability, reproducibility and re-thinking of finding, laws and
processes (by the way, good base principles for life also ;-).

It's simply similar to how a great deal of other software behaves. Just the
Bitcoin client foss, says? What about
- All Office applications
- Adobe applications as already mentioned
- Eclipse
- Visual Studio
- Wireshark
- System Center consoles

If a system has to load a lot of libraries and to do a lot of configs at
startup it is wise to separate this into threads, build the mostly
used features first, show UI etc. and load the other stuff in background.

You're welcome to write a patch that loads the main UI while it displays a
wheel until everything is ready.

This splash screen is something like telling:
"You have to watch how long we need to start! No other way!" This kind of
hinders the acceptance a lot, as foss pointed out.

Oh great. The I consider the acceptance problem of "I doubleclicked, where
the app?" much bigger than a splash screen at login while I have to wait for
the rest of my system anyway.

Cheers,
Matt

Ingo


#7

I totally agree with you, foss.

  >>

  >> And here my cents...

  >

  > Jez, that discussion again. It's not like it hasn't been there for a year

  > now.

  >

  >> @damencho:

  >> In science, and I regard software engineering as science,

  >> sentences like "all are doing that" or "it has always been like this"

  >> are a no go! Otherwise men kin would not have made any progress as

  >> at a particular point in time everything "has always been like it is"!

  >> Science always lives from objectiveness, transparency,

  >> measure-ability, reproducibility� and re-thinking of finding, laws and

  >> processes (by the way, good base principles for life also ;-).

  >

  > It's simply similar to how a great deal of other software behaves. Just the

  > Bitcoin client foss, says? What about

  > - All Office applications

  > - Adobe applications as already mentioned

  > - Eclipse

  > - Visual Studio

  > - Wireshark

  > - System Center consoles

This is exactly the type of discussion one should not go into ("others are doing it

also..."). And it should definitely not go like systemd discussion in debian. So let's

talk facts and let's decide what are the advantages and disadvantages and if it will

be accepted as a piont to look at by the defs. Then let's talk about the efforts

and create a ticket as a todo. It then can be assigned, prioritized etc.

So, the first step has been done and there has been field report about this topic from

user side (foss and me). Let's first collect the feedback from other people and

do the first step in balancing the votes if this topic will be taken into account

being worked on...

>

  >> If a system has to load a lot of libraries and to do a lot of configs at

  >> startup it is wise to separate this into threads, build the mostly

  >> used features first, show UI etc. and load the other stuff in background.

  >

  > You're welcome to write a patch that loads the main UI while it displays a

  > wheel until everything is ready.

  >

  >> This splash screen is something like telling:

  >> "You have to watch how long we need to start! No other way!" This kind of

  >> hinders the acceptance a lot, as foss pointed out.

  >

  > Oh great. The I consider the acceptance problem of "I doubleclicked, where

  > the app?" much bigger than a splash screen at login while I have to wait for

  > the rest of my system anyway.

This is one of the feedbacks we expect (see above). Thanks for that and good point.

>

  >

  >> Cheers,

  >> Matt

  >

  > Ingo

  >

So, to add here, we need the informatio on which system this is happening. I just tested

it on my system (Kubuntu trusty x64, jdk1.7) and I am able to switch to other apps

which stay in front of loading splash screen. But because of the focus issues, I have

configured KDE such that I have set the "prevent activation..." settings to "medium".

I do not know if this has any impact. But it eases the focus issue where Jitsi graps

focus from any app, if a message arrives in chat windows.
···

Am 01.12.2014 um 14:03 schrieb Ingo Bauersachs:


#8

So, to add here, we need the informatio on which system this is
happening. I just tested it on my system (Kubuntu trusty x64, jdk1.7)
and I am able to switch to other apps which stay in front of loading
splash screen. But because of the focus issues, I have configured KDE
such that I have set the "prevent activation..." settings to "medium". I
do not know if this has any impact. But it eases the focus issue where
Jitsi graps focus from any app, if a message arrives in chat windows.

Linux: --splash=no

Ingo


#9

I absolutely agree that the advantages and disadvantages should be compared objectively. However, users expect an environment in which applications behave similarly, and braking or not braking this expectation should be considered as well.

Regards,
Boris

···

On 01/12/14 15:33, Buddy Butterfly wrote:

Am 01.12.2014 um 14:03 schrieb Ingo Bauersachs:

I totally agree with you, foss.

>>
>> And here my cents...
>
> Jez, that discussion again. It's not like it hasn't been there for a year
> now.
>
>> @damencho:
>> In science, and I regard software engineering as science,
>> sentences like "all are doing that" or "it has always been like this"
>> are a no go! Otherwise men kin would not have made any progress as
>> at a particular point in time everything "has always been like it is"!
>> Science always lives from objectiveness, transparency,
>> measure-ability, reproducibility and re-thinking of finding, laws and
>> processes (by the way, good base principles for life also ;-).
>
> It's simply similar to how a great deal of other software behaves.
Just the
> Bitcoin client foss, says? What about
> - All Office applications
> - Adobe applications as already mentioned
> - Eclipse
> - Visual Studio
> - Wireshark
> - System Center consoles
This is exactly the type of discussion one should not go into ("others
are doing it
also..."). And it should definitely not go like systemd discussion in
debian. So let's
talk facts and let's decide what are the advantages and disadvantages
and if it will
be accepted as a piont to look at by the defs.


#10

I totally agree with you, foss.

>>
>> And here my cents...
>
> Jez, that discussion again. It's not like it hasn't been there for
a year
> now.
>
>> @damencho:
>> In science, and I regard software engineering as science,
>> sentences like "all are doing that" or "it has always been like
this"
>> are a no go! Otherwise men kin would not have made any progress as
>> at a particular point in time everything "has always been like it
is"!
>> Science always lives from objectiveness, transparency,
>> measure-ability, reproducibility and re-thinking of finding,
laws and
>> processes (by the way, good base principles for life also ;-).
>
> It's simply similar to how a great deal of other software behaves.
Just the
> Bitcoin client foss, says? What about
> - All Office applications
> - Adobe applications as already mentioned
> - Eclipse
> - Visual Studio
> - Wireshark
> - System Center consoles
This is exactly the type of discussion one should not go into ("others
are doing it
also..."). And it should definitely not go like systemd discussion in
debian. So let's
talk facts and let's decide what are the advantages and disadvantages
and if it will
be accepted as a piont to look at by the defs.

I absolutely agree that the advantages and disadvantages should be
compared objectively. However, users expect an environment in which
applications behave similarly, and braking or not braking this
expectation should be considered as well.

agreed. If most systems do have a splash screen and Jitsi should behave
similar then the outcome would be to leave it like it is.
If the splash screen is not an issues then the performance is maybe the
topic to focus at.

···

Am 01.12.2014 um 14:47 schrieb Boris Grozev:

On 01/12/14 15:33, Buddy Butterfly wrote:

Am 01.12.2014 um 14:03 schrieb Ingo Bauersachs:

Regards,
Boris


#11

1) I like the splash screen
2) the always in foreground feature is acceptable for me
3) I am honestly very sorry that I have re-started an unneeded discussion

(there are for sure much more important things on the way for the next
stable Jitsi version...)

sorry again...


#12

hi,

this was a valid discussion. It was not too time consuming anyway, I think.
Startup time is discussable, though. But lets's do this not in
this thread.

Btw., If it behaves like you described on MacOS then it is annoyoing indeed.
Question is why it is behaving different. Is it Java, is it OS?
It does not happen on Linux here. Which Java Version are you using?

P.S.: Please stand to your point and be professional as already stated.
Being sry, ashamed or whatever does not help in ending this discussion
properly.

···

Am 01.12.2014 um 17:16 schrieb Mr.Smith:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

1) I like the splash screen
2) the always in foreground feature is acceptable for me
3) I am honestly very sorry that I have re-started an unneeded discussion

(there are for sure much more important things on the way for the next
stable Jitsi version...)

sorry again...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Desktop 10.3.1 (Build 13266)
Charset: windows-1252

wsBVAwUBVHyUgXIFU87htrbeAQhrhwf8CBXXbfOlpP3OMkO3o7L9x4aQB9XXbm8W
csj8HFlHcyiqarQSBZjfmUveKRZKTC0OrdBfATkKBe7jQfS3WhRbPBd4J/aeIczs
I32XfeC0LEWU76MeWgo0SbapI7TnR2WXLvuASWVKeFyFFm73b60YRNW70P7vPUsF
b6IrrDT+PzFVy7WNH6YLv9S8yHmdtSle3Fq/kyN6ZKaMSXmNg1K/pmzA0GncUIgD
lkgf2Z6im3WKETB5kEXJXwXLb8b/+h7Ok0LyvDsSLq3nVcTxg9ytrXcrblxYL9Vd
eKRikGWhx/TwaJwGQC7eSVLgKyYoYiXnB2Jsqo/ElH2qEbX3GRctdQ==
=KWeE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#13

I am using MacOS 10.8.5 on MacBook Pro early 2011, Java version build
1.7.0_45-b18.

I my opinion (and remembering) the "always foreground splash screen" on
MacOS appeared after updating Jitsi to nb 5350.

Because before this update I would have been a bit annoyed if I could
not hide the splash screen during startup by other software, I would
probably notice it

br, MS

hi,

this was a valid discussion. It was not too time consuming anyway, I

think.

Startup time is discussable, though. But lets's do this not in
this thread.

Btw., If it behaves like you described on MacOS then it is annoyoing

indeed.

PGP.sig (489 Bytes)

···

On 12/1/14 10:40 PM, Buddy Butterfly wrote:

Question is why it is behaving different. Is it Java, is it OS?
It does not happen on Linux here. Which Java Version are you using?

P.S.: Please stand to your point and be professional as already stated.
Being sry, ashamed or whatever does not help in ending this discussion
properly.

Am 01.12.2014 um 17:16 schrieb Mr.Smith:
1) I like the splash screen
2) the always in foreground feature is acceptable for me
3) I am honestly very sorry that I have re-started an unneeded discussion

(there are for sure much more important things on the way for the next
stable Jitsi version...)

sorry again...

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#14

Pink most definitely!

Although I guess I can also live with orange.

--sent from my mobile

···

On 01 Dec 2014 6:12 PM, "Buddy Butterfly" <buddy.butterfly@web.de> wrote:

hi,

this was a valid discussion. It was not too time consuming anyway, I think.
Startup time is discussable, though. But lets's do this not in
this thread.

Btw., If it behaves like you described on MacOS then it is annoyoing
indeed.
Question is why it is behaving different. Is it Java, is it OS?
It does not happen on Linux here. Which Java Version are you using?

P.S.: Please stand to your point and be professional as already stated.
Being sry, ashamed or whatever does not help in ending this discussion
properly.

Am 01.12.2014 um 17:16 schrieb Mr.Smith:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> 1) I like the splash screen
> 2) the always in foreground feature is acceptable for me
> 3) I am honestly very sorry that I have re-started an unneeded discussion
>
> (there are for sure much more important things on the way for the next
> stable Jitsi version...)
>
> sorry again...
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP Desktop 10.3.1 (Build 13266)
> Charset: windows-1252
>
> wsBVAwUBVHyUgXIFU87htrbeAQhrhwf8CBXXbfOlpP3OMkO3o7L9x4aQB9XXbm8W
> csj8HFlHcyiqarQSBZjfmUveKRZKTC0OrdBfATkKBe7jQfS3WhRbPBd4J/aeIczs
> I32XfeC0LEWU76MeWgo0SbapI7TnR2WXLvuASWVKeFyFFm73b60YRNW70P7vPUsF
> b6IrrDT+PzFVy7WNH6YLv9S8yHmdtSle3Fq/kyN6ZKaMSXmNg1K/pmzA0GncUIgD
> lkgf2Z6im3WKETB5kEXJXwXLb8b/+h7Ok0LyvDsSLq3nVcTxg9ytrXcrblxYL9Vd
> eKRikGWhx/TwaJwGQC7eSVLgKyYoYiXnB2Jsqo/ElH2qEbX3GRctdQ==
> =KWeE
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> dev mailing list
> dev@jitsi.org
> Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
> http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

_______________________________________________
dev mailing list
dev@jitsi.org
Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:
http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#15

I think you are right. I'm pretty sure that previously in was only shown while the Jitsi window was selected/visible (that is, you could change to another window and not see the Jitsi splash). Now as soon as you cmd-tab it pops back in the foreground.

Boris

···

On 02/12/14 09:15, Mr.Smith wrote:

I am using MacOS 10.8.5 on MacBook Pro early 2011, Java version build
1.7.0_45-b18.

I my opinion (and remembering) the "always foreground splash screen" on
MacOS appeared after updating Jitsi to nb 5350.

Because before this update I would have been a bit annoyed if I could
not hide the splash screen during startup by other software, I would
probably notice it


#16

`Hi,

  can you tell from which version you upgraded to 5350?

  Was it 5349 or earlier?

  Cheers,

  Matt

`
···

Am 02.12.2014 um 08:15 schrieb
Mr.Smith:

  I am using MacOS 10.8.5 on MacBook Pro early 2011, Java version

build 1.7.0_45-b18.

  I my opinion (and remembering) the "always foreground splash

screen" on MacOS appeared after updating Jitsi to nb 5350.

  Because before this update I would have been a bit annoyed if I

could not hide the splash screen during startup by other software,
I would probably notice it

  br, MS





  On 12/1/14 10:40 PM, Buddy Butterfly wrote:

  >

    > hi,

    >

    > this was a valid discussion. It was not too time consuming

anyway, I think.

    > Startup time is discussable, though. But lets's do this not

in

    > this thread.

    >

    > Btw., If it behaves like you described on MacOS then it is

annoyoing indeed.

    > Question is why it is behaving different. Is it Java, is it

OS?

    > It does not happen on Linux here. Which Java Version are

you using?

    >

    > P.S.: Please stand to your point and be professional as

already stated.

    > Being sry, ashamed or whatever does not help in ending this

discussion

    > properly.

    >

    > Am 01.12.2014 um 17:16 schrieb Mr.Smith:
  1. I like the splash screen

     2) the always in foreground feature is acceptable for me
    
     3) I am honestly very sorry that I have re-started an unneeded
    

discussion

    (there are for sure much more important things on the way for

the next

    stable Jitsi version...)



    sorry again...
    >> _______________________________________________

    >> dev mailing list

    >> >> Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:

dev mailing list

Unsubscribe instructions and other list options:

dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev


#17

`

  I like blue - keeps cool....

`Am 03.12.2014 um 15:38 schrieb Emil Ivov:
···

buddy.butterfly@web.demailto:buddy.butterfly@web.de

dev@jitsi.orgmailto:dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev

dev@jitsi.orgmailto:dev@jitsi.org

http://lists.jitsi.org/mailman/listinfo/dev