[jitsi-dev] release poll


#1

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?

Emil

···

--
https://jitsi.org


#2

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Would be good to have one, but:

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

I just tried to start an OTR session with Emil to try the recent
enhancements by Marin, but failed:
- Emil was partially on Android, so some quirks were to be expected
- The message "plugin.otr.activator.unreadablemsgreply" appeared in English,
even though I used a build where it is translated in German. Maybe otr4j
doesn't receive the language setting on its thread?
- The unreadable-encrypted-message appeared on my side, but Emil still
received the message. This is very confusing...
- The authentication progress window doesn't have a "cancel" button. I was
able to close it with the window-button, but this is unnatural. It should at
least close/abort when I stop the private conversation from the menu.
- The OTR menu in the chat window displays all sub-contacts of a
meta-contact, but as all sub-contacts have the same name, I'm unable to
distinguish which menu entry belongs to which account.

While I don't think these are show-stoppers as it is definitely better than
what we have now in the stable but it would still be nice to have it fixed.

Emil

Ingo


#3

Chat transport changing while chatting and changing the chat transport
to offline one if you leave the chat untouched for a while.

···

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

Emil

--
https://jitsi.org

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#4

Jitsi consistently crash when attempting video to a Cisco endpoint.
Would be great to finally have this fixed. Reported in
<https://trac.jitsi.org/ticket/1175>.

···

On 03.12.2013 20:25, Emil Ivov wrote:

To the Jitsi devs:

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

--
�yvind Kolbu
University of Oslo


#5

Remove wav as a call format call recording.

···

On 3 December 2013 11:52, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

Right ... I've actually noticed a similar one where outgoing messages
simply disappear. Has anyone else seen this?

On 03.12.13, 20:32, Damian Minkov wrote:

Chat transport changing while chatting and changing the chat transport
to offline one if you leave the chat untouched for a while.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

Emil

--
https://jitsi.org

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#6

Hi,

I use Jitsi on android. and I notice this problem there. In my case, both
sent and received messages from a few minutes before do not show up. This
may be due to Android destroying the activity to reclaim memory, but the
messages should show up as part of history.

-Sandeep

···

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

Right ... I've actually noticed a similar one where outgoing messages
simply disappear. Has anyone else seen this?

On 03.12.13, 20:32, Damian Minkov wrote:

Chat transport changing while chatting and changing the chat transport
to offline one if you leave the chat untouched for a while.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

Emil

--
https://jitsi.org

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#7

Right ... I've actually noticed a similar one where outgoing messages simply disappear. Has anyone else seen this?

···

On 03.12.13, 20:32, Damian Minkov wrote:

Chat transport changing while chatting and changing the chat transport
to offline one if you leave the chat untouched for a while.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

Emil

--
https://jitsi.org

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#8

To the Jitsi devs:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?

Would be good to have one, but:

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely
need to fix before that?

I just tried to start an OTR session with Emil to try the recent
enhancements by Marin, but failed:
- Emil was partially on Android, so some quirks were to be expected
- The message "plugin.otr.activator.unreadablemsgreply" appeared in English,
even though I used a build where it is translated in German. Maybe otr4j
doesn't receive the language setting on its thread?
- The unreadable-encrypted-message appeared on my side, but Emil still
received the message. This is very confusing...

I think the above should be noted (Marin, could you please write them down) but they don't seem like regressions so we I wouldn't say they should block a release.

- The authentication progress window doesn't have a "cancel" button. I was
able to close it with the window-button, but this is unnatural. It should at
least close/abort when I stop the private conversation from the menu.

Right. This one needs to be fiex (and we should also add an icon while we are at it).

- The OTR menu in the chat window displays all sub-contacts of a
meta-contact, but as all sub-contacts have the same name, I'm unable to
distinguish which menu entry belongs to which account.

Need to note.

While I don't think these are show-stoppers as it is definitely better than
what we have now in the stable but it would still be nice to have it fixed.

Agreed.

Emil

···

On 03.12.13, 21:03, Ingo Bauersachs wrote:

Emil

Ingo

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#9

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<

A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

Do you think there’s anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?<<

Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:

  1. sometimes poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs, fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while the video was fine with no dopped packets)

  2. camera sometimes doesn’t work or shows black image. The latter one is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back - then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java log entries. (I’ve posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)

  3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get altered. Really nasty, because the issue affects characters “popular” with command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts - setting a lower frame rate might help.

Jitsi is such a great program! But I’m increasingly scared to use it as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as “no video” on one side or “crackling noise”, shared screen drama (“can you see my screen - no :-(” ) or some ICE/NAT problems with routers we’ve used before) and hence might run into the reputation of beeing “the guy whose tools he himself “forced” upon us do not work. Why he can’t simply use Skype as we do, this Open Source Woozzz” :slight_smile:

I’d prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer help doing tests in different use cases and situations.

It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests (with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:

What do you think?

Grüße

Conrad


#10

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<

A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

Do you think there’s anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?<<

Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:

  1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs, fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while the video was fine with no dopped packets)

  2. camera sometimes doesn’t work or shows black image. The latter one is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back - then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java log entries. (I’ve posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)

  3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9). Really nasty, because the issue affects characters “popular” with command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts - setting a lower frame rate might help.

Jitsi is such a great program! But I’m increasingly scared to use it as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as “no video” on one side or “crackling noise” instead of high definition voice, shared screen drama (“can you see my screen - no :-(” ) or some ICE/NAT problems with routers we’ve used before) and hence might run into the reputation of beeing “the guy whose tools he himself “forced” upon us do not work. Why he can’t simply use Skype as we do, this strange Open Source Woozzz” (can’t even prove that I don’t look like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:

I’d prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer help doing tests in different use cases and situations.

It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests (with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a lot. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:

What do you think?

Grüße

Conrad


#11

just my 2 cent: I also try converting friends over to Jitsi and to all I recommend using the latest nightly instead of the stable release. have done so since jitsi v1. in my experience the stable release always had issues I found so annoying that switching to the nightly was the better way. like that, I might have 2-3 days bad experience but most often glitches then get fixed rather quickly in the nightly branch. kudos to the team for that.

also that way I can help test on OS X and keep track of changes in jitsi.

back to the initial question: a more frequent stable release schedule might improve the situation for the stable users base. so +1 from my side :slight_smile:


#12

thumbs up!
I completely agree with Conrad, as I have experienced (and still
experience) similar issues with Jitsi (always using latest nightly builds).
I aim to convert my friends from Skype to Jitsi users, unfortunately not
very successful so far.
Mainly, because the basic functions (audio and video quality) are not
working reliable well, however will similar small but nasty issues as
Conrad described.
I volunteer for testing (if my time schedule allows it) - and would be
happy to see Jitsi leading all user surveys in terms of usability and
audio/video quality.

MS

PGP.sig (489 Bytes)

···

On 12/3/13 10:49 PM, Conrad Beckert wrote:

>> How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<
A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

>> Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would
definitely need to fix before that?<<
Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty
stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:

1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs,
fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate
the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I
noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while
the video was fine with no dopped packets)

2. camera sometimes doesn't work or shows black image. The latter one
is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back -
then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange
reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow
blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java
log entries. (I've posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)

3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get
altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9).
Really nasty, because the issue affects characters "popular" with
command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a
screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very
well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably
similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to
get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts -
setting a lower frame rate might help.

Jitsi is such a great program! But I'm increasingly scared to use it
as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as "no
video" on one side or "crackling noise" instead of high definition
voice, shared screen drama ("can you see my screen - no :-(" ) or
some ICE/NAT problems with routers we've used before) and hence might
run into the reputation of beeing "the guy whose tools he himself
"forced" upon us do not work. Why he can't simply use Skype as we do,
this strange Open Source Woozzz" (can't even prove that I don't look
like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:

I'd prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability
and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great
difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer
help doing tests in different use cases and situations.

It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests
(with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems
etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team
e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a
lot. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:

What do you think?
Grüße
Conrad

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#13

I'm not sure it makes much sense to recommend the nightly to new
users, as there's so many different versions and you can't expect
users to keep checking and updating manually, so they'll probably stay
on whatever nightly is the latest when they download, which might even
be worse than the stable, until someone tells them there's a better
nightly or stable to install.

I agree that a more frequent stable reasease schedule would be good
though, so that users can benefit from the fixes sooner. Obviously
nightlies need to be tested to check that something hasn't been broken
before releasing them as stable but once we're happy about that, then
releasing it as stable whilst continuing to work on the nightlies
would be good I think.

On the issue of whether the current nightly has any show-stopping
bugs, perhaps the fact that the fingerprint screen doesn't always
display properly might be one. I know the new verification methods
don't appear to be affected by this, as they require less screen space
but some users might not be ready to trust those methods yet and want
to stick with using the fingerprints and I don't think we should force
them to change by releasing a version where the fingerprints can't be
used because of the display bug.

Regards
Derek

···

On 4 December 2013 10:58, Foss <foss@openmailbox.org> wrote:

just my 2 cent: I also try converting friends over to Jitsi and to all I recommend using the latest nightly instead of the stable release. have done so since jitsi v1. in my experience the stable release always had issues I found so annoying that switching to the nightly was the better way. like that, I might have 2-3 days bad experience but most often glitches then get fixed rather quickly in the nightly branch. kudos to the team for that.

also that way I can help test on OS X and keep track of changes in jitsi.

back to the initial question: a more frequent stable release schedule might improve the situation for the stable users base. so +1 from my side :slight_smile:
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#14

It's probably worth putting things into perspective:

While it would be awesome to fix all serious issues with Jitsi on all Operating Systems and all audio/video hardware: we don't currently have the resources to do this.

On the other hand: there's been quite a load of work completed since the last release and many users are not benefiting from this because it is not in the stable branch.

So, while we still have issues, there are many things that are problematic in stable and that are fixed in nightly.

My earlier question was hence about the following:

     Is there anything that used to work with 2.2 and that is currently broken?

These are the things that can realistically get attention in a short term period and be squeezed into the release.

Note that a release does is not the last chance you get to have stuff fixed. Work continues as usual and the release is not changing anything about that. The release is just a snapshot that we promote as

1. reasonably usable and
2. better than the previous "reasonably usable" snapshot

So, again: it's about improving on 2.2, not about reaching perfection, and as the wise often say: "Let's not perfect be the enemy of good".

Emil

···

On 03.12.13, 23:04, Mr.Smith wrote:

thumbs up!
I completely agree with Conrad, as I have experienced (and still
experience) similar issues with Jitsi (always using latest nightly builds).
I aim to convert my friends from Skype to Jitsi users, unfortunately not
very successful so far.
Mainly, because the basic functions (audio and video quality) are not
working reliable well, however will similar small but nasty issues as
Conrad described.
I volunteer for testing (if my time schedule allows it) - and would be
happy to see Jitsi leading all user surveys in terms of usability and
audio/video quality.

MS

On 12/3/13 10:49 PM, Conrad Beckert wrote:

>> How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<
A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

>> Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would
definitely need to fix before that?<<
Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty
stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:
1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs,
fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate
the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I
noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while
the video was fine with no dopped packets)
2. camera sometimes doesn't work or shows black image. The latter one
is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back -
then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange
reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow
blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java
log entries. (I've posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)
3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get
altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9).
Really nasty, because the issue affects characters "popular" with
command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a
screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very
well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably
similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to
get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts -
setting a lower frame rate might help.
Jitsi is such a great program! But I'm increasingly scared to use it
as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as "no
video" on one side or "crackling noise" instead of high definition
voice, shared screen drama ("can you see my screen - no :-(" ) or
some ICE/NAT problems with routers we've used before) and hence might
run into the reputation of beeing "the guy whose tools he himself
"forced" upon us do not work. Why he can't simply use Skype as we do,
this strange Open Source Woozzz" (can't even prove that I don't look
like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:
I'd prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability
and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great
difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer
help doing tests in different use cases and situations.
It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests
(with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems
etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team
e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a
lot. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:
What do you think?
Grüße
Conrad

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#15

I agree with Conrad and Mr. S.

>> Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?<<

JITSI voice is inherently broken. Whether I use PC, Android, or Linux all I get is unintelligible chopped
up voice. Years ago JITSi worked well. I stopped using JITSI many months ago. It is not understandable
even on my LAN.

I think the devs kept adding things to JITSI and now there is really only one way to fix things.
Take a knife and cut off the fat.

My suggestion is to fork to a JITSI slim. SIP + XMPP + Voice + Video + ZRTP + Chat + OTR.
No desktop sharing, no proprietary protocols, nothing but the basics.

If necessary cut down Jitsi to only XMPP voice + ZRTP, reduce the code size to the minimum.
For secure chat use Pidgin + OTR.

Not only does voice not function, but chat msgs never arrive many times. Store and forward is not
functioning correctly.

In my opinion JITSI bloated itself into unmanageable code. With limited dev resources, JITSI
must by obligation keep features and code size down. In my opinion, this means secure voice
and secure chat over open source protocols only. If someone wishes MSN or Yahoo, or screen
sharing they should use JITSI fat and not JITSI slim.

I remember JITSI voice with ZRTP functioning with good audio, then at some point the audio could
no longer be understood.

I appreciate all that the devs have done over the years, but since some time I can no longer use
JITSI for voice or chat.

Regards, Earl

···

On 03/12/2013 23:04, Mr.Smith wrote:

thumbs up!
I completely agree with Conrad, as I have experienced (and still experience) similar issues with Jitsi (always using latest nightly builds).
I aim to convert my friends from Skype to Jitsi users, unfortunately not very successful so far.
Mainly, because the basic functions (audio and video quality) are not working reliable well, however will similar small but nasty issues as Conrad described.
I volunteer for testing (if my time schedule allows it) - and would be happy to see Jitsi leading all user surveys in terms of usability and audio/video quality.

MS

On 12/3/13 10:49 PM, Conrad Beckert wrote:

>> How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<
A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

>> Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?<<
Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:
1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs, fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while the video was fine with no dopped packets)
2. camera sometimes doesn't work or shows black image. The latter one is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back - then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java log entries. (I've posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)
3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9). Really nasty, because the issue affects characters "popular" with command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts - setting a lower frame rate might help.
Jitsi is such a great program! But I'm increasingly scared to use it as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as "no video" on one side or "crackling noise" instead of high definition voice, shared screen drama ("can you see my screen - no :-(" ) or some ICE/NAT problems with routers we've used before) and hence might run into the reputation of beeing "the guy whose tools he himself "forced" upon us do not work. Why he can't simply use Skype as we do, this strange Open Source Woozzz" (can't even prove that I don't look like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:
I'd prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer help doing tests in different use cases and situations.
It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests (with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a lot. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:
What do you think?
Gr��e
Conrad


#16

I still have to agree with the other two guys, there are still too many
problems with the basic functionality, which for me is voice and video
chat. From my experience the nightly versions aren't noticeably better
in that regard than the last release, so in that sense a release would
only increase the version number.

The only thing that made my user experience better was changing from
PortAudio to PulseAudio, but that only means that PortAudio in Jitsi is
broken. Now I can at least get reasonably reliable voice chat with only
occasional problems. The Video experience was rather one sided the last
couple of times I tried, meaning that I could see my partner but not
the other way around or similar issues.

IMHO those things need to get more robust, and when that is achieved
a release is a good thing, because this will get attention and will get
into the Linux distributions and people will see that the new version
is better than the old one and that jitsi actually works.

Regards,
Philipp

···

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:34:44 +0100 Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

It's probably worth putting things into perspective:

While it would be awesome to fix all serious issues with Jitsi on all
Operating Systems and all audio/video hardware: we don't currently
have the resources to do this.

On the other hand: there's been quite a load of work completed since
the last release and many users are not benefiting from this because
it is not in the stable branch.

So, while we still have issues, there are many things that are
problematic in stable and that are fixed in nightly.

My earlier question was hence about the following:

     Is there anything that used to work with 2.2 and that is
currently broken?

These are the things that can realistically get attention in a short
term period and be squeezed into the release.

Note that a release does is not the last chance you get to have stuff
fixed. Work continues as usual and the release is not changing
anything about that. The release is just a snapshot that we promote as

1. reasonably usable and
2. better than the previous "reasonably usable" snapshot

So, again: it's about improving on 2.2, not about reaching
perfection, and as the wise often say: "Let's not perfect be the
enemy of good".

Emil


#17

Hi Emil,

I agree with you that time and ressources are precious, I also suppose that there may be development goals / deadlines I’m probably not aware of. It is also the case that the current nighties are so much better than the existing stable version (and hence I frequently update). So it makes perfect sense to push towards a release. However, a stable release is only good when it is stable.

Jitsi with its unique features such as thourough encryption is the solution to so many problems these paranoid days - unless it constantly drives its users cracy with the issues described earlier. It’d be a pity if it could not live up to its full potential due to minor flaws.

My proposal is not so much pushing back the release date but to instigate and systematize community testing. Your point, Emil, is valid: You guys cannot test every imaginable combination of hardware, OS, routers etc. which could be the cause for less than perfect functioning. But this is something we, the users, can help you with. My point is to get the basic functionality to work flawlessly: calling, voice, video and screen.

What about to have some test cases posted on the Web which we’ll perform among us and then report the results back to you, the dev’s (including a privacy-wary way to drop off the logs) I’m convinced the issues arise from relatively few causes.

I’d be happy to help you with that. Who want’s to join? (conrad_b@jabber.ccc.de)

What do you think?

Viele Grüße

Conrad

···

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 04. Dezember 2013 um 02:34 Uhr

Von: “Emil Ivov” emcho@jitsi.org

An: “Jitsi Developers” dev@jitsi.org

Betreff: Re: [jitsi-dev] release poll - My humble proposal on what to do before release

It’s probably worth putting things into perspective:

While it would be awesome to fix all serious issues with Jitsi on all

Operating Systems and all audio/video hardware: we don’t currently have

the resources to do this.

On the other hand: there’s been quite a load of work completed since the

last release and many users are not benefiting from this because it is

not in the stable branch.

So, while we still have issues, there are many things that are

problematic in stable and that are fixed in nightly.

My earlier question was hence about the following:

Is there anything that used to work with 2.2 and that is currently

broken?

These are the things that can realistically get attention in a short

term period and be squeezed into the release.

Note that a release does is not the last chance you get to have stuff

fixed. Work continues as usual and the release is not changing anything

about that. The release is just a snapshot that we promote as

  1. reasonably usable and

  2. better than the previous “reasonably usable” snapshot

So, again: it’s about improving on 2.2, not about reaching perfection,

and as the wise often say: “Let’s not perfect be the enemy of good”.

Emil

On 03.12.13, 23:04, Mr.Smith wrote:

thumbs up!

I completely agree with Conrad, as I have experienced (and still

experience) similar issues with Jitsi (always using latest nightly builds).

I aim to convert my friends from Skype to Jitsi users, unfortunately not

very successful so far.

Mainly, because the basic functions (audio and video quality) are not

working reliable well, however will similar small but nasty issues as

Conrad described.

I volunteer for testing (if my time schedule allows it) - and would be

happy to see Jitsi leading all user surveys in terms of usability and

audio/video quality.

MS

On 12/3/13 10:49 PM, Conrad Beckert wrote:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<

A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

Do you think there’s anything inherently broken that we would

definitely need to fix before that?<<

Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty

stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:

  1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs,

fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate

the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I

noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while

the video was fine with no dopped packets)

  1. camera sometimes doesn’t work or shows black image. The latter one

is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back -

then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange

reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow

blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java

log entries. (I’ve posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)

  1. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get

altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9).

Really nasty, because the issue affects characters “popular” with

command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a

screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very

well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably

similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to

get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts -

setting a lower frame rate might help.

Jitsi is such a great program! But I’m increasingly scared to use it

as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as "no

video" on one side or “crackling noise” instead of high definition

voice, shared screen drama (“can you see my screen - no :-(” ) or

some ICE/NAT problems with routers we’ve used before) and hence might

run into the reputation of beeing "the guy whose tools he himself

“forced” upon us do not work. Why he can’t simply use Skype as we do,

this strange Open Source Woozzz" (can’t even prove that I don’t look

like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:

I’d prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability

and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great

difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer

help doing tests in different use cases and situations.

It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests

(with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems

etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team

e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a

lot. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:

What do you think?

Grüße

Conrad


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#18

Well, what can I tell you. Works flawlessly for me! I *literally* spend my
days making calls on Jitsi and I rarely come across apps with equal
audio/video quality. I am sorry you've had issues. If and when someone
reports them in a clear and reproducible way *and* when we have the time
and the resources to investigate and fix them, we will.

That said, as I've already mentioned several times, this has absolutely
nothing to do with the upcoming release.

Emil

--sent from my mobile

···

On 5 Dec 2013 01:43, "Earl" <Large.Files@gmx.net> wrote:

I agree with Conrad and Mr. S.

>> Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would
definitely need to fix before that?<<

JITSI voice is inherently broken. Whether I use PC, Android, or Linux all
I get is unintelligible chopped
up voice. Years ago JITSi worked well. I stopped using JITSI many months
ago. It is not understandable
even on my LAN.

I think the devs kept adding things to JITSI and now there is really only
one way to fix things.
Take a knife and cut off the fat.

My suggestion is to fork to a JITSI slim. SIP + XMPP + Voice + Video +
ZRTP + Chat + OTR.
No desktop sharing, no proprietary protocols, nothing but the basics.

If necessary cut down Jitsi to only XMPP voice + ZRTP, reduce the code
size to the minimum.
For secure chat use Pidgin + OTR.

Not only does voice not function, but chat msgs never arrive many times.
Store and forward is not
functioning correctly.

In my opinion JITSI bloated itself into unmanageable code. With limited
dev resources, JITSI
must by obligation keep features and code size down. In my opinion, this
means secure voice
and secure chat over open source protocols only. If someone wishes MSN or
Yahoo, or screen
sharing they should use JITSI fat and not JITSI slim.

I remember JITSI voice with ZRTP functioning with good audio, then at some
point the audio could
no longer be understood.

I appreciate all that the devs have done over the years, but since some
time I can no longer use
JITSI for voice or chat.

Regards, Earl

On 03/12/2013 23:04, Mr.Smith wrote:

thumbs up!
I completely agree with Conrad, as I have experienced (and still
experience) similar issues with Jitsi (always using latest nightly builds).
I aim to convert my friends from Skype to Jitsi users, unfortunately not
very successful so far.
Mainly, because the basic functions (audio and video quality) are not
working reliable well, however will similar small but nasty issues as
Conrad described.
I volunteer for testing (if my time schedule allows it) - and would be
happy to see Jitsi leading all user surveys in terms of usability and
audio/video quality.

MS

On 12/3/13 10:49 PM, Conrad Beckert wrote:

>> How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<
A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

>> Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would
definitely need to fix before that?<<
Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty
stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:
1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs, fading
or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate the Opus
codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I noticed a high
jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while the video was fine
with no dopped packets)
2. camera sometimes doesn't work or shows black image. The latter one is
reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back - then Jitsi
sends only black video until restart. For some strange reasons, sometimes
Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow blocked. In this case
there is no video channel at all but some Java log entries. (I've posted
about this some days ago with no reply yet)
3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get
altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9). Really
nasty, because the issue affects characters "popular" with command line
typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a screen range to
share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very well. There are
signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably similar/the same to
2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to get the screen over.
Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts - setting a lower frame
rate might help.
Jitsi is such a great program! But I'm increasingly scared to use it as
I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as "no video" on one
side or "crackling noise" instead of high definition voice, shared screen
drama ("can you see my screen - no :-(" ) or some ICE/NAT problems with
routers we've used before) and hence might run into the reputation of
beeing "the guy whose tools he himself "forced" upon us do not work. Why he
can't simply use Skype as we do, this strange Open Source Woozzz" (can't
even prove that I don't look like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:
I'd prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability
and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great difference
and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer help doing tests
in different use cases and situations.
It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests (with
more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems etc.) That
would require some kind of organisation from the core team e.g. test cases,
prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a lot. Side effect: get
to know your users :slight_smile:
What do you think?
Grüße
Conrad

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#19

We make a couple of thousand calls *daily* with Jitsi and it works perfectly well.

Whatever problem you may have with voice quality, it must have something to do with a specific constellation of OS, soundsystem and hardware.

Freundliche Grüsse,
Ingo Bauersachs

-- sent from my mobile

···

Le 05.12.2013 à 01:43, "Earl" <Large.Files@gmx.net> a écrit :

I agree with Conrad and Mr. S.

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?<<

JITSI voice is inherently broken. Whether I use PC, Android, or Linux all I get is unintelligible chopped
up voice. Years ago JITSi worked well. I stopped using JITSI many months ago. It is not understandable
even on my LAN.

I think the devs kept adding things to JITSI and now there is really only one way to fix things.
Take a knife and cut off the fat.

My suggestion is to fork to a JITSI slim. SIP + XMPP + Voice + Video + ZRTP + Chat + OTR.
No desktop sharing, no proprietary protocols, nothing but the basics.

If necessary cut down Jitsi to only XMPP voice + ZRTP, reduce the code size to the minimum.
For secure chat use Pidgin + OTR.

Not only does voice not function, but chat msgs never arrive many times. Store and forward is not
functioning correctly.

In my opinion JITSI bloated itself into unmanageable code. With limited dev resources, JITSI
must by obligation keep features and code size down. In my opinion, this means secure voice
and secure chat over open source protocols only. If someone wishes MSN or Yahoo, or screen
sharing they should use JITSI fat and not JITSI slim.

I remember JITSI voice with ZRTP functioning with good audio, then at some point the audio could
no longer be understood.

I appreciate all that the devs have done over the years, but since some time I can no longer use
JITSI for voice or chat.

Regards, Earl

On 03/12/2013 23:04, Mr.Smith wrote:
thumbs up!
I completely agree with Conrad, as I have experienced (and still experience) similar issues with Jitsi (always using latest nightly builds).
I aim to convert my friends from Skype to Jitsi users, unfortunately not very successful so far.
Mainly, because the basic functions (audio and video quality) are not working reliable well, however will similar small but nasty issues as Conrad described.
I volunteer for testing (if my time schedule allows it) - and would be happy to see Jitsi leading all user surveys in terms of usability and audio/video quality.

MS

On 12/3/13 10:49 PM, Conrad Beckert wrote:

How would you guys feel about a release before the end of December?<<

A nice Christmas gift. :slight_smile:

Do you think there's anything inherently broken that we would definitely need to fix before that?<<

Inherently broken maybe nothing but I face many small but nasty stability issues that make the experience a bit frustrating sometimes:
1. sometimes very poor sound quality: Crackling noise, drop outs, fading or sometimes uncomprehensible voice. It helped to deactivate the Opus codec. But the issue occurs with other codecs as well. I noticed a high jitter and dropped packets in the audio channel (while the video was fine with no dopped packets)
2. camera sometimes doesn't work or shows black image. The latter one is reproducible: when I suspend my notebook to disk and come back - then Jitsi sends only black video until restart. For some strange reasons, sometimes Jitsi gets into a state when the camera is somehow blocked. In this case there is no video channel at all but some Java log entries. (I've posted about this some days ago with no reply yet)
3. Sharing the desktop: Some characters do not get through or get altered in a funny manner (including Touch Tones played on 0-9). Really nasty, because the issue affects characters "popular" with command line typing ( | to give an example). The overlay to select a screen range to share is hard to see and cannot be manipulated very well. There are signaling issues with Screen Sharing as well (probably similar/the same to 2.) - it takes sometimes a couple of attempts to get the screen over. Sometimes the shared screen has thick artefacts - setting a lower frame rate might help.
Jitsi is such a great program! But I'm increasingly scared to use it as I run into minor glitches in essential functions (such as "no video" on one side or "crackling noise" instead of high definition voice, shared screen drama ("can you see my screen - no :-(" ) or some ICE/NAT problems with routers we've used before) and hence might run into the reputation of beeing "the guy whose tools he himself "forced" upon us do not work. Why he can't simply use Skype as we do, this strange Open Source Woozzz" (can't even prove that I don't look like RMS for the lack of video signal) :slight_smile:
I'd prefer to postpone Christmas until January and focus on stability and reliability instead of new features. That would make a great difference and helps all parties involved. For my side I would offer help doing tests in different use cases and situations.
It would also be extremely nice to get more folks into user tests (with more setups, operating systems, routers, cameras, sound systems etc.) That would require some kind of organisation from the core team e.g. test cases, prepared protocolls, etc. but would improve quality a lot. Side effect: get to know your users :slight_smile:
What do you think?
Grüße
Conrad

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#20

Hi Conrad,
I'll join in, at least until the most important issues for me are
narrowed down or fixed (voice/video reliability).

A note to start with, after seeing your JID: jabber.ccc.de didn't work
for me when ICE was needed, jit.si is way better in that regard.
Sometimes it takes a minute until a connection is established, but
that's way better than "ICE failed". How well ICE works seems to depend
very much on the server setup.

Regards,
Philipp

···

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 20:46:46 +0100 (CET) "Conrad Beckert" <conrad_videokonferenz@gmx.de> wrote:

Hi Emil,

I agree with you that time and ressources are precious, I also
suppose that there may be development goals / deadlines I'm probably
not aware of. It is also the case that the current nighties are so
much better than the existing stable version (and hence I frequently
update). So it makes perfect sense to push towards a release.
However, a stable release is only good when it is stable. Jitsi with
its unique features such as thourough encryption is the solution to
so many problems these paranoid days - unless it constantly drives
its users cracy with the issues described earlier. It'd be a pity if
it could not live up to its full potential due to minor flaws. My
proposal is not so much pushing back the release date but to
instigate and systematize community testing. Your point, Emil, is
valid: You guys cannot test every imaginable combination of hardware,
OS, routers etc. which could be the cause for less than perfect
functioning. But this is something we, the users, can help you with.
My point is to get the basic functionality to work flawlessly:
calling, voice, video and screen. What about to have some test cases
posted on the Web which we'll perform among us and then report the
results back to you, the dev's (including a privacy-wary way to drop
off the logs) I'm convinced the issues arise from relatively few
causes. I'd be happy to help you with that. Who want's to join?
(conrad_b@jabber.ccc.de) What do you think? Viele Grüße Conrad